Stimmenfang # 123 - Who actually goes to the Bundeswehr today?
- Subscribe to
- Apple podcasts
- Google podcasts
- Spotify
- Deezer
- Alexa
- RSS
All podcasts
July 24, 2019, Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer is sworn in as the new Minister of Defense. At the top of their priority list? She wants to make the Bundeswehr more visible again. Only a few months later, around 400 recruits make their pledge publicly before the Reichstag.
The Minister's public outreach also has to do with the lack of staff in the Bundeswehr. Thousands of jobs are free - too unattractive is the army, too bad its reputation in the population. What is the Bundeswehr doing about it?
That's what the new episode is about. We are going to a job fair with the Bundeswehr recruits, talking to young interested parties and those who have already left the army. And SPIEGEL chief reporter Matthias Gebauer explains where the lack of staff comes from.
How do I subscribe to the podcast?
You will find "Stimmenfang - der Politik-Podcast" every Thursday on SPIEGEL ONLINE ( just hit the red play button above ) and on podcast platforms like Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Deezer or Soundcloud. On the way, on the way to work, in sports: You can hear our new audio format wherever you want and when you want. Subscribe to our free podcast "Voices Catch" to not miss a episode.
You can either hear "Voices Catching" through the player in this article or download it to your smartphone, tablet or computer. So you can play it anytime - even if you're offline.
If you are reading this text on an iPhone or iPad , click here to go directly to the podcast app. Click on the Subscribe button to get a new episode directly to your device every week for free.
If you 're using an Android device , you can "catch votes" on Google podcasts, or download a podcast app such as Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, or others and add "voice catch" to your subscriptions.
You can also hear voice capture with your Alexa devices . Simply install the Voicemail Alexa app.
The podcast as a text to read
You want to read what's said in the podcast? Then you are right here.
The complete transcript
[00:00:01] Matthias Kirsch Welcome to vote, the political podcast from SPIEGEL. I am Matthias Kirsch.
[00:00:12] One- player Solemn pledge Soldiers, speak to me for the solemn pledge: I vow - I pledge, the Federal Republic of Germany - the Federal Republic of Germany ...
[00:00:24] Matthias Kirsch Berlin, in the middle of November on the square in front of the Reichstag. Around 400 recruits from the Bundeswehr take their vows at a big party.
[00:00:32] Einspieler Solemn pledge .... and the freedom of the German people to bravely defend - bravely defend.
[00:00:40] Matthias Kirsch Of course, the Minister of Defense Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer is also present. This public pledge was her idea and it is important to her. So important that she had said at her own swearing in the summer:
[00:00:53] Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer I have therefore written to all prime ministers and suggested that they perform a public pledge in their respective federal states on the 12th of November for the Bundeswehr's birthday.
[00:01:05] Matthias Kirsch Not all federal states have participated, but also in other cities, public pledges were made on November 12, the founding of the Bundeswehr. In Munich and in Magdeburg for example. Why did the Secretary of Defense insist? Quite simply: It wants to make the Bundeswehr in the German public again visible.
[00:01:25] Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer That would be a strong signal and a strong sign of recognition for our soldiers.
[00:01:32] Matthias Kirsch Making the Bundeswehr more visible - that has a good reason, because: The Bundeswehr has an image problem. And that brings problems. One of the biggest of these: The Bundeswehr, urgently needs staff. 25,000 jobs are currently vacant in the army, and there are more each year. That is why in this episode of voting we ask the question: Who actually goes to the Bundeswehr today? To find out, I met a recruiter of the Bundeswehr, I talked with interested parties, but also with a Bundeswehr dropout. And my colleague Matthias Gebauer has finally told me in our studio, where the lack of staff comes from and what reasons there are. A few weeks ago, on a rather cold Saturday morning, I was in the Berlin district of Moabit. In the conference room of a large hotel chain there was a career fair for schoolchildren and in the middle of the hustle and bustle - a state of the Bundeswehr.
[00:02:29] Bundeswehr prospect Katja What do I have to do if I want to join the Bundeswehr?
[00:02:30] Recruitment Officer Felix Schade What do you want to do?
[00:02:32] Bundeswehr prospective Katja Yes, that depends on what's up there.
[00:02:35] Recruitment Officer Felix Schade Okay, which degree are you doing or are you?
[00:02:35] Bundeswehr prospect Katja I graduated from high school.
[00:02:38] Matthias Kirsch I have an appointment with Felix Schade, he is a recruiting officer. When I arrive, Schade is talking to a young woman.
[00:02:47] Recruitment Officer Felix Schade It's the question for what you're interested in.
[00:02:48] Bundeswehr prospective Katja Well, first of all the military.
[00:02:52] Recruitment Officer Felix Schade Okay, and do you want to study or do an apprenticeship?
[00:02:54] Bundeswehr prospect Katja Training would be good.
[00:02:55] Matthias Kirsch Felix Schade and his colleagues, who accompany him here, will lead dozens of conversations on this day, like those with the young woman. Their job is to recruit new staff for the Bundeswehr.
[00:03:06] Recruitment Officer Felix Schade I am a Career Advisory Officer and am employed at the Career Advice Bureau Berlin Mitte and I am also here in the function. We also go to trade fairs, to job fairs, present ourselves as an employer and are here for all questions that the young people have to the career in the Bundeswehr.
[00:03:22] Matthias Kirsch So you are looking for the future soldiers for the troops, but also civil servants for civilian professions, which you can practice in the Bundeswehr. For the army desperately needs people. What is the current personnel situation in the Bundeswehr?
[00:03:37] Recruitment Officer Felix Schade The current personnel situation - I think it's good. We have a 181,000 soldiers - which is actually quite good. Of course, you always need specialist staff. That's not just the case with us, it's the same in the civilian economy. And we also try to win young people for us, even if they have an education, for example, specialized personnel in the electronic field, in the military sector. Of course, these are people that everyone needs and of course the Bundeswehr needs the same.
[00:04:00] Matthias Kirsch Even though Schade does not think the situation is that bad. The numbers tell a different story. In the Ministry of Defense, for example, it is assumed that every eighth school graduate in Germany would have to go to the German Armed Forces each year to cover their shortage of staff. That's almost 100,000 people a year. One reason for this lack of personnel is conscription, which just does not exist anymore. In 2011, it was abolished and that makes the Bundeswehr until today to create.
[00:04:29] Recruitment Officer Felix Schade Of course that's why we also do recruitment , of course. Surely you have won from the conscription and people. That was the same for me. I was a conscript, I had to join the Bundeswehr for nine months and these nine months have now become 16 years old. It could not have been that bad. I saw it then, it's fun, it's a great job full of variety and then I extended it. And we just do not have that possibility anymore, that the young people have to go to the Bundeswehr. Now it is voluntary. They can also do military service in voluntary military service or just become a time soldier, not only includes the profession of the soldier. Of course, you can also choose civilian careers with the Bundeswehr. We also have civil servants in the non-technical administrative service or even in the technical administrative service. So there are all possibilities open. If one does not want to wear a uniform, he can make a career in the Bundeswehr as well.
[00:05:11] Matthias Kirsch For a long time, the Bundeswehr has drawn a large part of its personnel from the very people who had to do the basic military service before. At the beginning of the 2000s, that was still 100,000 servicemen per year. So many potential career soldiers and other personnel. But now the Bundeswehr is an employer like everyone else. And compete with all other training companies. Young school-leavers like Katja, that's the young woman we already heard talking to Felix Shade, use the job fair to get an idea of the Bundeswehr.
[00:05:48] Katja, you have just been advised by the Bundeswehr for a very long time. Are you perhaps interested in training the German army to study?
[00:05:56] Bundeswehr prospect Katja Yes, I'm not so sure yet. I will definitely think about it for a few more days now and make myself better on the internet again.
[00:06:03] Matthias Kirsch What would I really like about the Bundeswehr?
[00:06:08] Bundeswehr prospect Katja Yes, I think that everything that goes into the field of air service somehow, that could be exciting. But just like the one, because in the white shirt, because now just said that the Navy go out by boat and so. That sounds very interesting too.
[00:06:25] Matthias Kirsch What will be the decisive point for you? How will you decide, whether you go to the Bundeswehr or not?
[00:06:31] Bundeswehr prospective Katja I will definitely apply for such a consultation, and then I think, I'll talk to the people again. And now we will certainly see again in more detail, how long that then goes and when I could really get started. And then there are also dates, until when you can apply and something. Maybe I can do another internship or do a taster course or something. Then there will surely be a decision after that.
[00:06:58] Matthias Kirsch There's a lot going on at the Bundeswehr stand this morning. Again and again, all the consultants are in talks and the young people - often accompanied by their parents - have to queue up and wait. Although most have an idea of the Bundeswehr, but know only a few details. That is why the Bundeswehr is not only physically present at such fairs, also on the Internet. It appears on social networks, for example on YouTube.
[00:07:24] Promotional material of the Bundeswehr "Our enemy is never stupider than us". "Please take a little distance, please". "Yes, my comrade has just found a bag again. That should be cocaine."
[00:07:34] Matthias Kirsch With mini-series such as "The Recruits" or "Mali", the Bundeswehr also wants to be more present and better known on the internet.
[00:07:47] Matthias Kirsch Fast cuts, a lot of music - this is especially intended to appeal to young people. But YouTube videos or not, most young prospects still have many questions. Like the 16-year-old Leonie.
[00:08:02] Bundeswehr member Leonie Once I visited the open house, I was especially interested in the mountain hunter. Well, I also think about the Bundesnachrichtendienst to go, for example, in the field service. Would you have somehow served in the Bundeswehr?
[00:08:20] Recruitment Officer Felix Schade That makes sense. In order to understand the relationships with us, it makes sense. But these are also challenging tasks that you have chosen for yourself: Gebirgsjäger. Have you ever been in the mountains?
[00:08:32] Bundeswehr member Leonie I have been skiing since I was three, that's why I was particularly interested in it and I like climbing too. I was already a bit something explained. Most likely, I would have just stopped for the mountain hunter there.
[00:08:44] Recruitment Officer Felix Schade Okay, have you ever heard of voluntary military service?
[00:08:48] Bundeswehr prospect Leonie Not really.
[00:08:49] Matthias Kirsch I also talked to Leonie again after her talk with the counselor.
[00:08:54] Matthias Kirsch What is it, what attracts you to the Bundeswehr?
[00:08:58] Bundeswehr member Leonie Perhaps the cohesion of so many people to protect their land, in part or in other countries. And in general, to protect the general public, I think so - when I was small, I wanted to be a policewoman - I always found that good.
[00:09:16] Matthias Kirsch The classic corps spirit is therefore an important point for the Bundeswehr for Leonie. Recruiter Felix Schade hears a variety of reasons.
[00:09:26] Recruiting Officer Felix Schade Of course, the motivation is that some of them, of course, also want to serve in society, for others it is a safe employer. You can hear the most diverse opinions.
[00:09:35] Matthias Kirsch What is clear during my visit to the fair and in my conversations with the young people is that only very few are really determined to go to the German Armed Forces. Even Lea, who wants to start studying medicine in the coming year, is still torn.
[00:09:50] Bundeswehr member Lea I have the advantage that you will be paid during your studies and that you do not have the numerus clausus. That's why, I think, that would be worth it. But [on the other hand] because I also like to travel and actually wanted to live abroad for a while and that would not be possible.
[00:10:08] Matthias Kirsch And even those interested who have no doubts anymore are still no sure recruits for Felix Schade and his team. No one can directly commit to this at the student fair. After the first contact, the applicants must take initiative. So you have to take a step towards the Bundeswehr.
[00:10:26] Recruiting officer Felix Schade Somebody has to make an appointment with us in the counseling office. So a consultant takes an hour and explains to him: What does a soldier's job entail? What opportunities, what opportunities does he have. And the military profession is not a profession like any other. And that is the reason why you have to take advice.
[00:10:41] Matthias Kirsch If someone comes for a consultation of one hour - can he then sign it immediately afterwards?
[00:10:48] Recruitment Officer Felix Schade No, no. If he has consulted, then he gets from us, if he wants, because application documents. Then we tell him to sleep over it for a few more nights. And then he has to proactively call us and arrange a second appointment. At the second appointment, he then just submits his application documents. Then we take another hour, we go through the application documents. If he still has questions, he gets in the follow-up. Maybe then open up questions, if he has slept a few more nights over it. And at the second appointment, when he submitted the application, he then just applied.
[00:11:18] Matthias Kirsch And even after this step you are still not in the Bundeswehr. The interested parties then still have to pass the pattern. And if you think, as I initially thought, that the Bundeswehr simply accepts all applicants in their current personnel problem, then you are wrong. According to its own statement, the Bundeswehr invites 50,000 applicants to take part each year. Of these, about half will then be set. One who passed this pattern a few years ago and then joined the Bundeswehr is Philipp Winnege.
[00:11:53] Matthias Kirsch Hi Phillipp?
[00:11:54] Philipp Winnege Hi.
[00:11:56] Matthias Kirsch Greetings.
[00:11:56] Finding someone who wants to talk to me about his time with the Bundeswehr was not easy. Philipp agreed and phoned me.
[00:12:04] Maybe you can briefly tell when you went to the Bundeswehr and how it came about.
[00:12:11] Philipp Winnege That I went to the Bundeswehr, that was actually a total coincidence. I never thought of going to the Bundeswehr before. But all of a sudden it interested me, because it's somehow a world that you do not know that way. Although you get something on the media, but what that is exactly, you know that as a young adolescent not yet. And that's why I somehow somehow thought: good, after graduation directly further, to study, I do not want that. Then I'm looking for a way to do something different. The Bundeswehr was an ideal opportunity to get a taste of another world.
[00:12:45] Matthias Kirsch In the fall of 2013 Philipps basic education begins. He is committed to seven months and then comes to a barracks in Hesse.
[00:12:53] Philipp Winnege I never had the plan that I would work for the Bundeswehr. I never wanted to commit myself. I really just wanted to have that experience. That's why I took the shortest, what went.
[00:13:03] Matthias Kirsch Now with a few years' absence - how do you remember this time? How was that during the basic training?
[00:13:09] Philipp Winnege With mixed feelings. Let's start with the negative first. Negative, very clear that the family was the first time - so it was for me - in my life was apart from her, that I really had to stand alone on my own legs - so far away from Hotel Mama. The circumstances that accompanied you there, so of course you have to get up earlier. I am rather late sleepers. Getting up at 5 o'clock, I never got used to it.
[00:13:44] Matthias Kirsch For me it was like that after the basic training, so after these first three months. Then you switched to another barracks. That changed a lot.
[00:13:53] Philipp Winnege Yes, I realized for the first time how the Bundeswehr should also save money and that in the whole of Germany there was such a time when the barracks closed. And my barracks, in which I came then, I came to Kusel, which lies in the Palatinate Forest. My barracks were then just before the closure. Accordingly, the funds were not there anymore, it's all falling apart somehow. And even the motivation in the barracks was already gone. Myself, somehow I was worth nothing, as someone who goes anyway soon. Accordingly, I sat much too long in my room and just watched TV, because you could not do anything with me.
[00:14:34] Matthias Kirsch By knowing that you had committed yourself for seven months, they were: We are now contributing less, or it's not worth the investment for the future.
[00:14:43] Philipp Winnege It was the same. On the one hand of course logical. Why should I invest in someone when I know that he is leaving soon? Clearly. On the other hand, of course, a bit sad, because in the end, I was alone in my boredom and then moved to quit.
[00:15:01] Matthias Kirsch That was in your fourth month at the Bundeswehr, where you decided to get out. What were the decisive points?
[00:15:08] Basically, the point came to me that I really wondered what I'm doing here. I was far from home and had nothing to do. So what am I doing here? Looking out the window, I can do that at home. And also the money, what I earn there, I have earned with a part-time job in one or two weeks in the home and see my family every night. That was more important and logical to me then than somehow pulling through and stultifying.
[00:15:37] Matthias Kirsch Did you have the feeling of being locked up somehow during the time?
[00:15:42] Philipp Winnege Yes, such a barracks brings that with it. That was already in Schwarzenborn, where I had my basic education, that was already given, by the fact that just the barracks has just been in the void and the next place first, no idea how many tens of kilometers away. And in Kusel it was like that again. The barracks was over the city, you could see the city, you could also get out in the evening. Nevertheless, one felt somehow locked up. One has looked at the city and thought: Actually down there is life, down there is society and we are up here, we are somehow out of society. That was a point where it was so slow to my psyche, where I thought to myself, somehow I'm excluded. We had a big window in the barracks, where you had to pass it on the way to the toilet, and then there were always the thousands of lights from Kusel in the evening. Every evening I thought to myself: Actually, I do not want to be here.
[00:16:42] Matthias Kirsch How did the Bundeswehr, your direct superiors, how did they react to your decision?
[00:16:47] Philipp Winnege In fact, it is clear to each of the superiors that every volunteer can say every day that he wants to go, and many do. I have had many comrades who have gone by the train, week after week. So that's normal for those, so tell me. And accordingly, there was no reason to be bad at me now.
[00:17:09] Matthias Kirsch Did they somehow fight for you or did they make the impression that they wanted to meet you in order to keep you there?
[00:17:18] Philipp Winnege I somehow had the feeling that even the superiors and those who have been around for a while, are somehow getting on the nerves of this profession. I often had the situation that one was simply confronted with a demotivation of the instructors. Accordingly, nobody ever approached me and fought me, but it was eaten. I opted for an exit and put a point virtually behind the thing, where there was nothing left to shake.
[00:17:48] Matthias Kirsch On the day Philipp leaves the barracks, he is really happy, he says. He then goes on long journeys, then he starts studying, but not at the Bundeswehr University. But that he got off even earlier, when he had planned that the Bundeswehr has made no move at all to persuade him to stay - then you ask somehow the question of how far the Bundeswehr is perhaps to blame for the lack of staff and because of their lack of attractiveness. And that's exactly what I'm talking about with my colleague Matthias Gebauer. He is chief reporter of SPIEGEL. Hello Matthias.
[00:18:23] Matthias Gebauer Hello.
[00:18:24] Matthias, you have been writing for SPIEGEL for a long time about defense and security, you are an expert on the Bundeswehr. Without that we talk around the bush: Does the Bundeswehr have a personnel problem?
[00:18:36] Matthias Gebauer Yes, the question can definitely be answered with yes. The offspring of the Bundeswehr, I would say, in addition to the big problems with the armaments projects, which one has - it is the biggest problem, what the Bundeswehr has. And indeed, one can say, since the abolition of compulsory military service that the Bundeswehr is no longer behind, to compensate for the retirement of older soldiers by younger applicants. There is a really constant problem, which is also considered one of the biggest problems in the ministry. And that's why, in addition to the so-called trend reversal material, there is also an attempt to create a turnaround in the personnel - but so far with modest success.
[00:19:15] Matthias Kirsch You have already mentioned compulsory military service, we will come back to this later. In which areas does this lack of staff show up? Is especially with the troop or even with the civilian employees. Where is this personnel problem?
[00:19:28] Matthias Gebauer To my knowledge, it is mainly with the troupe. The acquisition of real soldiers, above all time soldiers, who commit themselves for eight or twelve years, is simply a big problem. The Bundeswehr is competing in the market, which is relatively narrow at the moment with young people, in principle with large companies, which offer interesting opportunities for young people who offer good earning potential and good opportunities for advancement. And there, the Bundeswehr, I think, for young people still acts as an old, big tanker, because imaginable way mainly thinks of it: I would then locked up in a barracks and above all, I have very rigid hierarchical structures. And, of course, that is first of all, in contrast to other employers who work on exactly these things, it seems very unattractive.
[00:20:16] Matthias Kirsch You had addressed conscription. Let's take a look at the numbers, which I have here in front of me. So at the beginning of the 2000s, for example, there were almost 100,000 members of the military service each year. Of those, of course, people stayed at that time. Is that the main reason for this personnel problem today?
[00:20:34] Matthias Gebauer Personnel planner at the Bundeswehr always say that conscription, which in the end - one has to admit - was also relatively short. I think at the end of six months, before it was abolished, that was considered by a lot of people as an internship. And at that time, much effort was made to show young people what the Bundeswehr could actually offer in this period of compulsory military service. And indeed, if you look at it closely, the Bundeswehr has a lot to offer. So really good training opportunities. But the image of the Bundeswehr is just, and that's also because of these many reports of material defects, shortcomings in the barracks, is still just an unattractive employer, at least when I talk to younger people. Some say that they even have an interest in the Bundeswehr. But what they read about in the paper is so unattractive that they simply do not come to that point and end up looking for something in the private sector.
[00:21:29] Matthias Kirsch You see there a direct connection?
[00:21:30] Matthias Gebauer There has to be a connection, I do not know polls. But that is itself ... can you actually imagine, if I now apply to an employer, who is simply in the newspaper again and again that his material is very, very bad. For example, if I look at the barracks, even if I am traveling with the Minister and we just run around a bit unprotected on barracks, then of course it all seems very run-down. And since the predecessor of Mrs. Kramp-Karrenbauer has really tried a big serve, as well to draw a lot of money, because that is the first thing that young people look at, namely whether this is a pleasant place for them. And of course this is even more crucial in the Bundeswehr, because at the end of the week you do not go home in the evening, but just stay in the barracks.
[00:22:17] Matthias Kirsch In addition to the basic military service, there was already voluntary military service at that time. In 2011 this was around 20,000 people per year. Today there are less than half, about 8,000 a year, who do voluntary military service. Why is it that this number has fallen as well?
[00:22:35] Matthias Gebauer Well, I think it's for the same reasons, because just getting into the Bundeswehr does not seem to be interesting anymore. Above all, the troupe also acts as a men's club. You should not forget that. You have not been able to eliminate that until today. Of course, this public image shows that, in principle, one is 95 percent male. Formally, equality between men and women also applies. But the fact is, there are, if you look at the commanders, the people who make a career, there are very few women. And all this looks stale, not really attractive. In the normal economy, you should be creative, and the German Armed Forces still have such a strong image, you are ordered to do what you have to do and then you do that and that is simply not attractive for young people.
[00:23:23] Matthias Kirsch I was with the recruits of the Bundeswehr on such a student, student fair on the way and there was a lot of pressure around this Bundeswehr stand around, many young people who wanted to inform at least once.But what also turned out, what we have heard in this episode, is that although the young people know the Bundeswehr, they do not really know much about it. Do you think that matters that this is a generation now that really has nothing to do with conflict so directly, who grew up in peace and security?
[00:23:54] Matthias GebauerWell, the Bundeswehr is of course in Germany - I would not say taboo now, but - it is not an issue - and so many soldiers complain - about which is detailed, about the entire inner life. I mean, who knows, normal newspaper readers, alone the division in the armed forces or which German citizen can enumerate all foreign missions? Of course, the Bundeswehr, in contrast to other countries, if you look at America, for example, the army simply has a much higher status, of course, is much more socially represented, so makes many more events and is not so frowned upon. Germany is just very, a very pacifist country, where Bundeswehr appearances in the public also repeatedly provide criticism. And that's what these recruiters are fighting for. I know the criticism too. It is always brought to me by the Bundeswehr leadership, again and again with the fact: Well, and you report a lot about the Bundeswehr, but you write, of course, mainly about the problems with the Bundeswehr. And that's right, of course, because that's one of the key issues. But possibilities for the German Armed Forces to show themselves correctly and to show everything they can. There are just as many different professions, including the Bundeswehr. It's not about when you go to the Bundeswehr, that you have to be a fighter. You can also become a technician, you can become an electronics engineer, you can become a computer expert. But to show that to the outside, of course, this troupe is still very difficult.
[00:25:26] Matthias Kirsch You mentioned Defense Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer, also her predecessor Ursula von der Leyen. What role do defense ministers play in this whole staffing problem, who have not all been very happy in the past?
[00:25:40] Matthias Gebauer I think a big role simply plays in your position in the government. I mean, despite all the criticisms that we have also practiced from SPIEGEL to Ursula von der Leyen - for example, in the consultant affair or in the organization of armor - which you really have to credit them, that they are really almost with Violence has tried to open the Bundeswehr also socially, for example for homosexual, for lesbian soldiers for example. But also, how to tattoo, that has allowed them to regulate quite clearly. And this opening, which it has achieved against great, great resistance within the Bundeswehr, was, I believe, a great merit. However, that has been big in the coverage, so to speak? No.But that has played a big role in the Bundeswehr. And that's one of the reasons why, among other things, Ms. von der Leyen was unpopular with the Bundeswehr, namely in conservative circles, because she really made this troupe out of such a kind of homogenous men's troupe - so she tried to break this shell around also to make the Bundeswehr more attractive as an employer, so to speak. As I said: In the Bundeswehr it is sometimes not so good. I think that was one of their most important tasks and therefore: Ministers already play a big role.
[00:26:57] Matthias Kirsch But do I understand you correctly? Ursula von der Leyen has taken steps, the opening of the Bundeswehr and it came then almost resistance from the Bundeswehr itself.
[00:27:05] Matthias Gebauer Absolutely, absolutely, very strong even. So just from the mighty generals, who of course are more likely to be between the ages of 50 and 60, so they found this social opening of the Bundeswehr very bad. Her very clear approach to, for example, right-wing extremist movements in the Bundeswehr have taken her many very bad. I hold it to this day - maybe there was one or the other verbal derailment - but the basic course was, of course, correct: do not look the other way, find out hard and try to remove the people from the Bundeswehr. Because that is, for example, in the end also a point that reduces the attractiveness of the Bundeswehr in the population, because many may have the impression that this is a stock-conservative pile, maybe even with easy proximity to the AfD. I mean, many young people say of course: Do you want to go to such a club, where possibly then the Stock Conservative is also your superior and you then, so to speak, in your political opinion form or you want to talk to the mouth.
[00:28:03] Matthias Kirsch How will Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer, the new Minister of Defense, beat herself?
[00:28:08] Matthias Gebauer I still have to see. What is a big problem, what she certainly has for the Bundeswehr's external representation, is that she has this double role. That she is CDU chairman on the one hand and, of course, at least for the moment, she has the feeling that she does not have enough time for the Defense Minister's job. That could become a problem. But I think that is a bit too early, because now to make a judgment.
[00:28:33] Matthias Kirsch From what you have now told, I believe, we can hold on. The staffing problem is very real and recruitment is difficult. At the same time, the demands on the Bundeswehr are growing, for example from abroad. US President Trump insists that Germany meets two percent military spending. As Secretary of Defense Kramp-Karrenbauer, what are my priorities now?
[00:28:58] Matthias Gebauer The personnel expenses, so to speak, in the Bundeswehr are not the biggest expenditure factor , that is still the material. And if Germany should reach two percent, of course, there would be a lot of money for material. I do not think it's going to happen, because I do not see a federal government raising defense spending to two percent because it's just such a big part of the federal budget. And that, I think, is simply not going to make it at all with the voters.
[00:29:29] Matthias Kirsch And even if that did not necessarily fix the staff problem.
[00:29:33] Matthias Gebauer Looking back on a long time, better equipment of the Bundeswehr would probably increase its attractiveness. Because I still believe - as we have talked about it at the beginning - that the shortage economy, which really prevails at every turn in the Bundeswehr, that very much the image of the Bundeswehr, so to speak, in young people or in principle actually affects all Germans. Because that's the core of reporting. If you had the feeling that you have the most modern material, then maybe you would also be more attractive. But these are very long processes, you probably always have to think in ten years rather than five years. That also means that possibly Mrs. Kramp-Karrenbauer, at least if she goes the way she has planned to go to the Chancellery, would probably not experience it herself any more.
[00:30:21] Matthias Kirsch Matthias, thank you for your assessment!
[00:30:23] Matthias Gebauer 're welcome.
[00:30:27] Matthias Kirsch That was votes, the policy podcast from SPIEGEL. You can listen to the next episode of Stimmenfang on spiegel.de next Thursday, on Spotify and in all popular podcast apps. If you want to send us feedback, just send us an email to stimmfang@spiegel.de or use our voice mailbox 040 380 80 400. You can also send us a WhatsApp message - again: 040 380 80 400. This episode was produced by Yasemin Yüksel and me, Matthias Kirsch. Thanks for the support to Philipp Fackler, Johannes Kückens, Wiebke Rasmussen, Matthias Streitz and Philipp Wittrock. The vocal music comes as always from Davide Russo.