SPIEGEL: Mr. Scorsese, your name is so closely linked to your good friend and tribe actor Robert de Niro that I must confess: It was only with a brief reflection that I realized that "The Irishman" was their first joint work in more than two years Is decades.
Scorsese: You are not the only one. In fact, De Niro and I worked together for the last time at Casino, which was released in 1995. It's not like we did not feel like it anymore after that. But somehow we always missed each other professionally. At some point, nine years ago, I think, we both realized then that we were almost 70 years old and maybe we would not have time any longer. So we decided to do one more movie together - and then we were really looking for a suitable material.
SPIEGEL: And the choice fell on the novel "I Heard You Paint Houses" by Charles Brandt, who is now the model for "The Irishman"?
Scorsese: No, first we had another book on the wrap, "Frankie Machine" by Don Winslow. This is a true thriller, but the longer we worked on it, the more I felt that somehow it did not fit. Should de Niro and I really make such a genre movie after all the movies we did earlier? At our age? We even had a deal underway with Paramount Pictures, but I did not have the enthusiasm for the project. However, when Bob was given the novel "I Heard You Paint Houses" and was so emotionally touched that he could barely reproduce the plot at a meeting in my office, I became clueless. I found this enthusiasm contagious; that sounded like a story worth investing all its energy and passion in again.
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Sharon Stone and Robert De Niro in "Casino" from 1995
SPIEGEL: Since "The Irishman" was not produced by Paramount Pictures, you clearly did not share your enthusiasm there?
Scorsese: The Paramount boss at the time could hardly believe that I dropped "Frankie Machine", even though it had already given the green light. But as I said: I was not convinced enough of the Winslow filming, especially since I was already parallel with "Shutter Island" and "Hugo Cabret" busy and also tried to "Silence" to handle. For "The Irishman", on the other hand, I was fired up and screenwriter Steve Zaillian finished his adaptation in a few months. But Paramount had no interest in it.
SPIEGEL: In the end, you found a partner in Netflix.
Scorsese: That was ultimately a matter of money. Because this time I needed a lot.
SPIEGEL: Because of the elaborate digital technology with which you have rejuvenated de Niro and Co. in several flashbacks on the computer?
Scorsese: Exactly. These scenes were a huge challenge right from the start. Ten years ago, we had to make do with make-up, which probably would not have been ideal. Another option that I considered were younger actors who take over the roles in the flashbacks. But in the end I could not imagine doing without Bob in these scenes. If only because he and I are so connected, we both grew up in New York at the same time as we are in those flashbacks. The whole context of this era, all references and references, I would have had to teach each young actor first. But then visual effects specialist Pablo Helman told me while working on a scene for "Silence" that it is now possible to digitally rejuvenate the faces of actors.
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"The Irishman": A henchman for the worstSPIEGEL: In any case, it does not lack a certain irony that you, of all people, who have never had much left for comic filming that lives on CGI effects ( the interview took place just before Scorsese's latest comments on Marvel films caused quite a stir online. ed. ), become the pioneer of this new technology, right?
Scorsese: I do not think so, because I have never objected to treating computer tricks as one of many tools in filmmaking. I'm just not a fan of them, if they are more than one of several elements and almost take control of the whole movie. CGI should be a tool in our work as a filmmaker, but should not handle all the work. As long as it comes to telling a human story, I have no problem with perhaps enlarging the panorama of a war battle on the computer during the next movie.
SPIEGEL: From "Mean Streets" to "Good Fellas" to "The Departed", your films have repeatedly dealt with gangsters, violence and organized crime. Has your view of these topics changed over the decades?
Scorsese: Of course I'm telling a gangster movie today, at over 70, different from what I did when I was 30. Because today I have a completely different, much deeper understanding of life. And maybe because I'm a bit too old for too much action (laughs). But you know, in the movies you're alluding to, I was not as much about the mafia or gangsters as heroes or criminals like now in "The Irishman." I've always been interested in the question: What makes someone a good person? What does that mean anyway: good? Which forces and efforts are consuming us? And how does one manage, if at all, not to be eaten by life?
SPIEGEL: You yourself started your career in the 1970s as part of the so-called "New Hollywood", which tried to break away from the Art Cinema with its films, as the previous generation had produced in large film studios. Is this comparable to the discrepancy between your work today and the blockbusters for which young viewers storm into the cinemas?
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Scorsese during the filming of "Goodfellas" from 1990
Scorsese: I'm rather skeptical. Because the big filmmakers, from whom we wanted to distance ourselves at that time, were still gods for us in spite of everything. As much as we wanted to do much different, we worshiped the generation before us. The aim was not to make their work obsolete, but to create works that, although they are created in a different way, still want to reach the same public. In the current situation, I rather see the danger that a kind of cinema and its audience threatens to disappear completely.
SPIEGEL: Cinema: How hard was it for you to get involved in a deal with Netflix, which means that a majority of people will see "The Irishman" at home rather than on screen?
Scorsese: On the one hand not difficult, because as I said: Without the money of Netflix there would be no such movie. And there was no interference from a creative point of view, I found remarkable. Nevertheless, on the other hand, of course, I fought. First, they just wanted to assure me that the movie will be in theaters for a week, before it can be streamed. That was out of the question for me. In the US, he is now instead four weeks exclusively in the cinema to see ( in Germany from this Thursday for two weeks, editor's note. ) And on demand even after the streaming start. I think that's a pretty decent deal.
In the video: The trailer for "The Irishman"
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SPIEGEL: So you are not angry with a fan who prefers watching the movie at home?
Scorsese: Of course I prefer people to go to the movies and watch "The Irishman" on the screen. But you know what: When I saw "Citizen Kane" for the first time, it was also on the TV. Even with commercial breaks (laughs). That's the way it is sometimes.
"The Irishman" will be released on cinemas from 14th November. From November 29th, the movie will be available on Netflix.