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Christoph and Angela Kraus
Photo: Chris Loup
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[00:00:02]
Christoph Kraus
A colleague of ours who also deals with slow sex said a nice sentence: You are in slow sex when you can stop at any time.
[00:00:10]
Angela Kraus
So if I
leave
out the goal and the goal in our sexuality is almost always an orgasm, then I have all my senses open to what is happening.
[00:00:23]
Lenne Kaffka
We all have ideas for a better life.
But how do we implement them in everyday life?
In this podcast we meet people every week who tell us how it can work.
Welcome to Smarter Living.
I'm Lenne, Kaffka and this time I'm skype with Angela and Christoph Kraus.
[00:00:42]
ADVERTISEMENT
Today's episode is presented to you by our partner Microsoft 365. Your day only has 24 hours, but with Microsoft 365 you have the opportunity to make better use of your time.
A subscription with Office Premium apps, cloud storage and much more that makes it easier for you to organize your private and family life.
More information at microsoft365.com/family.
[00:01:07]
Lenne Kaffka
And today a little hint: If you like to hear about living Smarter with your children and if you find that details about sexual intercourse are not in great detail for the ears of your children, then I recommend You to just listen to tonight's episode on your own.
[00:01:20]
Angela Kraus
Hello, my name is Angela Kraus.
[00:01:22]
Christoph Kraus
My name is Christoph Kraus, hello.
[00:01:23]
Angela Kraus
And together we've been on the path of mindful sexuality,
i.e.
slow sex, for six years.
[00:01:29]
Christoph Kraus
Exactly, and that enriched our lives.
[00:01:31]
Lenne Kaffka
If you want to try something new in bed, you don't have to contort yourself or fill your closet with sex toys.
It might be enough to shift down a gear - during slow sex.
Angela and Christoph freed themselves from their own crisis a few years ago.
Meanwhile, as sex coaches, the two also teach other couples why the hunt for orgasm is not worthwhile and how a tantric quickie works.
[00:01:56] We're talking about slow sex today, you already said mindful love - but what exactly do I have to imagine by that?
[00:02:03]
Christoph Kraus you mentioned
slow sex.
Diana Richardson brought the name in a book about ten years ago.
And she wrote this book about mindful sexuality, and to make it sell well, the publisher said, come on, we call it slow sex.
Because there was just such a wave of slow food and the publisher said: Come on, we'll call it slow sex and it's going to be a bestseller.
And she reluctantly called it that, but that name, interestingly, caught on.
So slow sex ..
[00:02:32]
Angela Kraus
And, excitingly, that has nothing to do with "slow".
Most people think straight away: slow sex, okay, I don't move at all anymore, it's totally boring, and we are all driven by a bit of action in our sexuality that we get exemplified in society.
And that has nothing to do with the fact that it is somehow particularly slow now, but the slow actually stands for mindfulness.
[00:02:53]
Lenne Kaffka
Okay, that means it's a kind of relabelling of something that has been around for a long time, a more mindful approach to sexuality.
Correct?
[00:03:00]
Christoph Kraus
Yes, absolutely.
It has been around for thousands of years, I would say, since mindfulness has even existed.
And it has a lot to do with tantra, an old philosophy from the Far East that spilled over here at some point.
And Diana Richardson herself was with the Osho, who was a spiritual person, in India and the USA and also learned from him.
And there was a lot about mindful sexuality, and she practically continued research in this area.
Her life is dedicated to this whole project and she has written many books about it.
[00:03:30]
Lenne Kaffka
You have already said that mindful sexuality has been around for thousands of years.
You haven't been doing this for thousands of years, but you got into slow sex at some point, and that's why I'm talking to you two today.
You've been together for a long time.
You have been a couple for 34 years.
[00:03:43]
Angela Kraus
Yes, it's
amazing
, exactly!
[00:03:43]
Lenne Kaffka
You know
each other
from school.
In the preliminary talk you referred to yourself as parallel class love, have been married for 20 years, but six years ago you got to a point at which you were both very dissatisfied with your sexuality.
what happened there?
[00:03:59]
Angela Kraus
We were both frustrated in the end.
And as is often the case in a relationship, nobody dared to talk about it.
Yes, there came a moment after a sexual encounter in bed where we were both lying in silence next to each other, where I finally got my heart and said: I think we need some help.
I just said that one sentence and then prayed, oh god, what is he saying now?
And my husband, Christoph, was totally relieved and said: I'm so glad you said that.
Yeah i think we need help.
And from then on it was actually such a river for us, so easy.
We got help, a sex therapist who worked very body-related.
After a year of sex therapy, what came out in the end, in the final interview, was actually: "Okay, what were the best moments for you when you look back?" Asked the therapist.
And then we both said that those where we were really present were the greatest for us.
Yeah, and then she told us maybe there is something for you here from Diana Richardson Slow Sex.
And then we read into it, after the first few pages we said, yes, that's it, that's our way
[00:05:06]
Christoph Kraus
From there we only went forward.
From this sex therapy, especially at the end, with this tip for this book, it was clear to us that this was the way to go.
And of course there is a 27-year-old shared sexual history and biography before that, where we naturally taught each other sexuality when we were 15, listened to our friends, to the Bravo, to pornography and thought, yes, this is how sexuality has to be.
But in the end it led us to a dead end for 27 years, where I also had a lot of ideas, how could we revive our sexuality or introduce variety?
Or where is the kick?
So so many subtle attempts but there was never any real conversation and it took that one moment in bed that was so great: we need help.
And then it was clear, now let's do it.
[00:05:52]
Lenne Kaffka
What do you think was what you missed most of all during sex?
Connection, intimacy, no pressure to perform, not having to do it well, not doing it for the other.
Lots of things, but also something like, am I too early?
Or will I get an erection?
Lots of things that were difficult at the time.
Or also the duration.
The duration was always much, much too short for me with what felt like 15 to 20 minutes of the entire act.
And inside I felt that somehow I wanted that much longer.
But not much longer than what I know from the films, I would like to be intimate with my partner much longer.
But somehow that wasn't possible.
[00:06:32]
Angela Kraus
For me the main topic was that I somehow always had the feeling that
something is wrong
with me.
Well, I always had this problem, this sexual arousal that somehow you always get held up everywhere, in films or whatever, that it didn't occur to me.
So for me, sexuality was exhausting.
It took an incredible amount of body tension to even get sexual arousal.
So not necessarily my first choice, let's put it that way.
I knew I always noticed, my husband, that it is very important to him.
In terms of my character, of course, I am typically feminine in terms of my upbringing. "Sexuality is important for men. They all only want one thing," says this thing.
It was clear to me, okay, it's important for a relationship.
It's important for men, including my husband.
So I'll take part.
Yes, but if someone had told me you want a chocolate bar or you want to go to bed with your husband, I would have taken the chocolate bar.
It didn't pull me.
I thought something was wrong with me.
An incredible number of women share this feeling with me.
Is something wrong?
So, I was referring to it entirely on myself.
And today I know that it had nothing to do with me.
My body works wonderfully.
I just "used" myself incorrectly - in "quotation marks".
[00:07:50]
Lenne Kaffka
It now sounds a bit as if this thought of slow sex was almost a relief for you, Angela.
But Christoph, didn't you have any reservations about trying that out?
In the end, that was pretty much the opposite of what you saw and knew as sex before, wasn't it?
[00:08:04]
Christoph Kraus
Yes, yes, absolutely.
But for me it was such a way out, a common way out of this sex trap, out of this performance sex trap that we just had before.
And we had a joint project, and the project meant getting closer to each other physically, getting to know each other anew, getting involved again and after a short time feeling how much love and tenderness, how much intimacy it creates.
So for me it was more of a win.
And in slow sex it is like that, that you make an appointment, you basically arrange to meet at your meeting, and there is also the so-called quickie, so a tantric slow sex quickie, if you want.
And it's great because it has nothing to do with the quickie in the kitchen, as you might have known it in the past or seen in films, but instead you say, come on, let's go for 20 minutes and bring penis and vagina together.
And I thought, wow, 20 minutes, that's great.
So much greater than what I had before.
Because that can even take an hour.
It was a great benefit for me to come into contact with my partner more than was previously possible.
[00:09:07]
Lenne Kaffka
Okay, we have to be a little more specific.
Already means a few things: We bring penis and vagina together.
Sounds like penetration to me.
Let's talk about what exactly is different about slow sex?
If you summarize heterosexual sex in a clumsy way, as most people imagine, then it would probably be foreplay, penetration and the big end of the orgasm.
What is different now in slow sex?
[00:09:31]
Angela Kraus
The first and the most important difference is that there is no sequence, so every sexual encounter is new.
That is, and that is the subject of mindfulness, what comes in, that is, I always look, what is exactly, right now?
I'm not concerned with what my goal might be?
Namely, usually our goal is to achieve an orgasm, either to get the partner to do it or myself, but I just see what's there today.
That means I'm not chasing after any goal.
So I don't put any pressure to perform for myself, no pressure to expect on the other side that I expect anything from the other person.
Rather, I rather go in one of those ... Christoph always describes it nicely with a walk through the mountains or when you go up the mountain.
I can now pant up there and see that I get to the top of the summit cross and put my pimples on my hiking stick.
Or I just enjoy the walk and see where I can go.
And then I notice a lot more.
So if I leave out the goal and the goal in our sexuality is almost always an orgasm, then I have all my senses open to what is happening.
But when I have a goal, I ignore everything else.
That's one of the big differences.
Omit the goal.
[00:10:51]
Lenne Kaffka
Unintentionality
is the key word, right?
[00:10:52]
Angela Kraus'
lack of
intent, exactly.
[00:10:55]
Christoph Kraus
And of course we meet with an intention.
We meet with an intention to meet physically.
You just said it so nicely: foreplay, actual act, and then it's done.
For us there is no longer any foreplay or the actual act. For us, the whole encounter is like making love.
And there is no longer the foreplay and then just pressing which buttons somewhere to generate arousal and then merging as quickly as possible, into penetration or union or whatever you like to call it.
It's just about those one, two, three hours, just being physically together and very present.
And when we are not so much in the head, but more in feeling in our body, we become more and more sensitive.
And it's great to experience what you can feel when you just leave that goal out of your mind.
[00:11:39]
Lenne Kaffka
Is anything forbidden during slow sex?
[00:11:41]
Christoph Kraus
No, not at all.
[00:11:42]
Lenne Kaffka
Any rules?
[00:11:43]
Christoph Kraus
No, everything is allowed, and it can be really wild.
The important thing is that you stay with yourself in your body and look, what am I feeling and what feels good.
[00:11:53]
Angela Kraus
What Christoph is saying, stay with yourself.
Back then in the sex therapy we did, it was one of the enlightening moments for me when the therapist said: Yes, you do sexuality first and foremost and actually only for yourself and not for your partner.
And I was always so polarized, I make sure that I touch my husband as much as possible, that he likes it and that he is highly aroused and that he comes to orgasm.
I have already written myself off earlier, because in our shared sexuality I never actually had an orgasm if I didn't lend a hand somehow myself.
That's why I hid it and just said okay, it's important to me.
The other side has fun, then I'm good in bed because it goes down well with him.
And then I thought, like now, I mean we're in bed together.
That's selfish.
And then she said: No, no, now just feel like yourself, how does that feel to you?
What are your feelings?
Even when I touch Christoph, I can touch him so that I know what he likes.
We have known each other long enough.
But I can carry out these touches in the way I like them best, so that the touch I give actually also makes me the recipient.
[00:13:07]
Lenne Kaffka
Okay, so be more careful with yourself.
But now of course I'm also interested in how the mindful quickie works.
[00:13:15]
Christoph Kraus
In slow sex, in mindful sexuality, it is about giving the penis and the vagina time and space in principle to feel each other.
You go into a union, regardless of whether there is an erection in the man or not.
You add a little lubricant.
There is a special position for this, the scissors position.
You bring the pelvis close together and basically just lie still for 20 minutes and let the penis and vagina do the work.
[00:13:41]
Angela Kraus
They have a life of their own if you let them
[00:13:43]
Christoph Kraus
And they can talk, and they can communicate, and they can exchange energy, even if it sounds a bit spooky.
But they can do that really well if you let them.
And as a rule, we don't let them have competitive sex, but we are in it and make our movements and our positions.
And in the tantric quickie, penis and vagina are given space to feel and feel.
I am like an observer.
[00:14:04]
Lenne Kaffka
I probably feel like most people who haven't tried it yet.
I actually find it very difficult to imagine sex without arousal.
Then what do you feel instead?
[00:14:13]
Christoph Kraus
Yes, that's exciting.
At first maybe nothing at all.
Maybe numbness or boredom at first, or .. That is strange at first.
So also because it is very different in perception.
So with 20 minutes of silence, so to speak, I was in seventh heaven, as if I bathed my penis in champagne and Angela said, hey, I'm bored.
[00:14:33]
Angela Kraus
I don't feel anything.
So, I was in the beginning, okay, what is that supposed to be now?
Okay, it doesn't hurt.
You can do it, but you don't have to, according to the motto.
So, I was very neutral.
For me it was more of a kind of meditation.
I'm also regularly dodged away and just thought, okay, I can't say now, I don't feel anything, I can't say now.
Then what should Christoph think that he is doing something wrong?
And then I thought again, I should stay with myself, that's my feeling.
He can't help it.
It's not his fault that I don't feel anything.
And then I said that and said, okay, I don't feel anything.
And then I was a bit very frustrated at first because I noticed that the kind of sexuality I had lived up to now had made myself or my vagina numb.
You have to imagine that the tissue in the vagina is not, and that of the penis, is not designed to feel fast movements.
That has deep receptors.
It actually needs gentle pressure.
And this rapid movement, this rubbing, they can't do that at all.
But if you now take away this friction that you are used to and go into silence, then there is nothing for the time being, because all these nerve connections that are necessary for this are actually cut.
That said, you need a certain amount of time to revive that.
[00:15:55]
Lenne Kaffka
One could actually think: sleep, eat, sex, humans are simply capable of that.
But that already sounds like you have to really learn slow sex first, maybe also have to do exercises.
[00:16:04]
Christoph Kraus
I would disagree with that, Lenne.
I travel a lot in seminars, also for self-reflection and what I have learned about myself is: I was the most attentive lover in the whole world to myself when I discovered myself as a young man.
It wasn't about getting a quick orgasm or ejaculation, but I could just touch myself in the bathtub for hours.
It is interesting when did that tip?
That tipped when I started reading Bravo, when I started talking about sex with my friends.
And the most important event, my first porno, it questioned all of that.
Everything I discovered before about mindful sexuality with myself.
And I am convinced that every person is born with it, but that it is only littered from the outside.
And from my own experience and from my work, I know that we humans are capable of learning well into old age and that this can come back and that this longing is in many people, just as it was in me.
[00:17:04]
Lenne Kaffka
Okay, then I would rephrase it: Maybe you had to learn it again first.
[00:17:07]
Christoph Kraus
Yes, we were allowed to unlearn the old.
[00:17:10]
Angela Kraus
Exactly, and that's a good thing that you say that, because ultimately sexuality is something we learn.
Many people believe yes, yes, that is in our genes, that is automatically in us.
Nobody really talks about it.
Except for the biology class and how to avoid getting sexually transmitted diseases and not getting pregnant.
There is no more knowledge transfer, and the rest will come by itself.
The first kiss and then it’s bääm and then the lights go on, and everything ... That’s okay.
But that is not the case.
We do it all ourselves with sexuality, and there you can also reach into the toilet, depending on what you teach yourself.
Ultimately, you can learn it again, you can learn something else.
You can teach the body something else.
[00:17:57]
Christoph Kraus
We went
through
puberty again in
our
early 40s.
It was great.
[00:18:03]
ADVERTISEMENT
Today's episode is brought to you by our partner Microsoft 365. Your day only has 24 hours, but with Microsoft 365 you have the opportunity to make better use of your time.
A subscription with Office Premium apps, cloud storage and much more that makes it easier for you to organize your private and family life.
More information at microsoft365.com/family.
[00:18:37]
Lenne Kaffka
What would you advise others who want to learn something new, who want to try out slow sex?
What is the best way to start?
[00:18:44]
Christoph Kraus
We clearly had the book, and we took this book, and we read it and looked at it, what appeals to us, what do we want to try?
And that definitely included this tantric quickie.
This is also something I would recommend to other couples to simply meet up.
[00:19:00]
Angela Kraus
We basically had the commitment to ourselves at the beginning, we are now trying something new, and we are only trying that.
That means we leave out the old completely, give the new time a chance, for a while, I now say in a period of three months, six months, whatever.
If you just look at a timeline, how long have you been sexually active and you want to change something, how many are then six months?
It's actually a fart on this timeline.
And then, in the end, you just do that. We make fixed appointments.
Most of them say: yes, but then I'm not in the mood, have?
[00:19:36]
Christoph Kraus
Sex must always be spontaneous.
[00:19:38]
Angela Kraus
Exactly, that's how it is in our heads.
Both of them feel very spontaneous.
Most of the time it goes bad.
Especially when you have small children or something.
Then there is nothing more spontaneous.
I then say what is the difference to a date?
If you say I have a good friend over there, I don't want to lose contact.
We studied together, however, and we have a fixed dinner meeting once a month.
You don't say that either: What if I'm not hungry?
It's not about food at all, it's about contact.
It's about getting in touch with someone.
And it is the same with sexuality.
You make an appointment to make love, what will come of it, you do not yet know the point in time, because there is no goal.
[00:20:15]
Lenne Kaffka
Did it help you that you set yourself such a period?
Because you said yes, in the beginning you felt bored.
When did you have a positive surprise for the first time?
And above all, what did you like then?
[00:20:25]
Angela Kraus
Well, it was actually a positive surprise from the start, because I was someone who, in my original or my performance sexuality, had the problem with a very uncomfortable feeling, with a feeling of friction , with a sore in the vagina, actually always.
That said, I was always eager for the whole thing to be over quickly.
And I've already had that right now, so that nothing hurts me anymore.
Yes, okay, it's not particularly exciting now, but for me it's first where I can say, yes, that's something, I'll go with you.
It is written in all books that this mindful union is the cornerstone.
There must be something to it.
I just stick with it and then I let myself be surprised.
And the more I could let go of this goal, I want the excitement, I want the orgasm, the more I let go of that, the more I was given beautiful feelings.
It took me a couple of weeks before I could say for the first time that I now feel a slight tingling sensation.
But that has increased, I stayed with it, and it increased to orgasm-like states by doing nothing, of which I am completely surprised.
[00:21:32]
Lenne Kaffka
Isn't there a bit of a risk of
turning the pressure to perform
into the opposite?
Instead of getting faster, better, longer, now all at once, more and more relaxed, slower, more mindful?
[00:21:41]
Christoph Kraus
No, no, not at all.
And I can say it was a win for me right from the start.
Just having nice feelings, meeting my partner often and having the experience my body always wants.
He wants to feel the other body, to smell it, to taste it, just to feel it.
[00:21:57]
Angela Kraus
Exactly, what straddles in between is usually our head.
They say yes, but now I don't feel like it.
I can't build lust in my head.
The lust is in my body.
[00:22:06]
Christoph Kraus
And it has always been easier for us to let go of that and keep coming back in or to feel it much more clearly when the other person drifts away to ask: Where are you now, and the opportunity to come back again, to give.
[00:22:19]
Angela Kraus
Not everything is always beautiful in sexuality.
Yes, feelings and emotions also arise there, certainly if you stay in self-observation, where it can really be that I say: I feel totally sad or I feel pressured.
To find the words for it and to be able to express it, because at that moment it is mine and the other side is not to blame, no matter where it comes from, I don't even have to understand it.
There are also women who cry for maybe two hours because something is going to come loose and they are grateful that they say: I can just be the way it is now.
I don't have to play a role in any way now or I don't have to do anything or I don't have to function.
I can just be who I am right now and feel what is there.
[00:23:08]
Lenne Kaffka
So the intimacy and closeness today almost lead to the fact that you can open up more to each other in the moments of sexuality?
[00:23:14]
Angela Kraus
Definitely
.
We also got to know each other much better on a deeper level.
How we work, what thought patterns we have, what autopilot is taking place in the back of our minds, whatever increases in sexuality.
For example, when I watch myself mindfully, by how I am at work, how I treat my son, however, these are always the same patterns and they also appear in sexuality.
For example, I have something like that from childhood, you also know, "Indian knows no pain", so be strong.
That's so mine, because I was very much influenced by my parents, and it also comes from sexuality.
I was in pain with sexuality and I didn't say anything.
[00:23:54]
Lenne Kaffka
What role does excitement still play in your sex today?
[00:23:58]
Christoph Kraus
So the excitement is totally welcome.
It can be there and it can blow up.
And orgasm is also totally welcome.
But it just happens.
Or I can make a conscious choice to let it happen now.
I'm not panting after that.
We see that the excitement is not quite that high.
On a scale like this from 1 to 10, 10 is orgasm, and we're not that far up.
We might be between five, six, seven.
Maybe it'll go up to eight or nine, and then we'll let it go down again.
Simply in the silence that you just breathe very consciously, feel it again.
And of course such a sexual act or an encounter will also be much, much longer.
Because you didn't want to be finished quickly like in the past.
They know what women can do to finish faster.
They tighten the pelvic floor.
For me as a man that feels like doing it myself with my hand.
And I'm done in five minutes.
This is also premature ejaculation.
[00:24:55]
Lenne Kaffka
I was just about to ask: How long does sex last for you today?
[00:24:57]
Christoph Kraus
Two to three hours, also at a time that we both like a lot.
So, for example, we prefer the morning to the evening or the afternoon when we are fresh.
[00:25:07]
Lenne Kaffka
You have to have the right job.
[00:25:09]
Christoph Kraus
Yes, but you can easily organize a lot of things so that it works if you really want to.
We noticed that too.
We hold these longer meetings once a week, on a fixed day, which is fixed in the calendar.
And if something should come up, we immediately look for an alternative.
There is a very high level of commitment.
And at this longer meeting there are always our short tantric quickies, which you can simply weave in before breakfast, when falling asleep, during the lunch break, whatever, which are very spontaneous, but which bring a lot of closeness and intimacy.
[00:25:43]
Lenne Kaffka
With you, sex doesn't start out of a moment through spontaneity, but through appointments.
How does sex end with you?
[00:25:51]
Christoph Kraus
That was a very difficult question at the beginning, how does sex end?
How can he stop?
A colleague of ours who also deals with slow sex said a nice sentence: You are in slow sex when you can stop at any time.
No matter how nice it is right now.
You can say you let's stop, I'm hungry.
[00:26:09]
Lenne Kaffka
What is more important for you today, discovering your own body or rather discovering the other body?
[00:26:14]
Angela Kraus
They are very closely related.
For example, when I have this soft skin here in the crook of his arm, when I go over it so very gently with my mouth, then it's a very sensual experience for me, because it's totally soft.
And so I can maybe stay there for ten minutes.
And at the moment when I am so present in a touch that I give because I can feel it so strongly for myself, it comes to the person who receives it, even though I'm actually doing it for myself, this touch incredibly well at.
[00:26:44]
Lenne Kaffka
How important is communication in slow sex?
[00:26:47]
Christoph Kraus
Totally important.
Total.
Very important.
We never talked during sex before.
It was always something that got me or Angela totally out of the sexual arousal.
It was like a cut like that.
We have found that communication is incredibly important in sexuality.
And we have found that it is becoming easier and easier to communicate, even while making love, and that that no longer gets us out, but that you can just keep going.
And that's not about talking, but just maybe briefly saying what exactly I feel.
[00:27:19]
Angela Kraus
That's a big, big keyword.
What am i feeling
Well, if I now notice that Christoph is caressing my chest somehow and I don't like it, then I can communicate it in two ways.
I can tell you are too tight
Then he is directly criticized and is badly received by the other side.
Or I can say I would like it to be easier.
So I can relate it to myself, there I am back to myself.
Yes, that is very essential in mindfulness, but also in mindful sexuality.
Always with me, what do I want.
[00:27:52]
Lenne Kaffka
That sounds as if you or you have learned something for your relationship in general.
These are communication techniques that can also help you in everyday life.
How has your relationship changed as a result of the decision to live slow sex?
[00:28:05]
Christoph Kraus
We have
grown
closer.
We got to know each other better and we have become much more independent beings.
We are no longer such a ball of Angela and Christoph, but today we are Angela for himself and Christoph for himself.
We tend to be much more differentiated today, for ourselves and can therefore meet each other much more easily at eye level.
[00:28:27]
Angela Kraus
This is exactly
why
we are actually much closer than ever before, as we have "divided ourselves up" more, in quotation marks.
[00:28:36]
Lenne Kaffka
When I hear it like that, I also have the feeling that mutual trust is definitely an important basis for slow sex.
Is it actually more for couples who have been together for a long time?
[00:28:47]
Christoph Kraus
No, couples can start in the same way.
Back then we had booked a retreat with Diana Richardson in Switzerland, and there were 25 couples, and there were some who had been together for 25 years, and some were just on their honeymoon.
[00:29:00]
Lenne Kaffka
But they were together for a while.
[00:29:03]
Angela Kraus
Well, definitely.
People who would then say, okay, I've already had so many relationships, and each time it ended that way in sexuality, and I don't want that anymore.
And when the next partner comes, I make it clear from the start that I want this kind of sexuality.
If you want to be with me, either like this or not at all.
There is also the fact that you say right from the start: I want to see a different floor straight away, because I've had so many bad experiences in my life.
[00:29:35]
Christoph Kraus
And we all know that when this
phase of
being in love is over, which somehow lasts for a maximum of six months to three years, this really being in love and then you take a lot of time together, that's how it works then mostly go down the drain at some point.
That this infatuation is gone, this lust, this standing on each other, so to speak.
Everyday life returns and love somehow fades into the background because there are other things to do.
And for me, slow sex or mindful sexuality is like a basis for many couples who want to stay together happily for a long time.
[00:30:08]
Lenne Kaffka
If you want to be angry, you can now say: Yes, of course, Christoph, Angela, they are together forever.
It is clear that they needed something else.
But don't you think that this could be something for younger people, maybe in their early twenties or something, who are still at the beginning of their sexuality?
[00:30:21]
Christoph Kraus
So it is great when young people let off steam once they have their experiences as adolescents, as young adults, and that in principle they then get access to the subject of mindful sexuality.
And somehow it has also become a task for me to accompany people in finding their way into mindful sexuality.
We do workshops for this, and some of the participants are in their early or mid-twenties.
[00:30:44]
Angela Kraus
But there are also people in their mid
or late 60s
. I think that's really great and crazy.
They say I want to change that now, and it works at any age.
[00:30:55]
Lenne Kaffka
Exactly, that's the other side.
It's never too late to start.
When I think back to when I was in my early 20s, I have no idea whether that would have interested me.
But I can imagine that I would not have said that I will only do this now. How dogmatic does one have to live?
Is it also possible to incorporate slow sex into your sex life from time to time as a variation?
[00:31:15]
Christoph Kraus
Well, I can only speak of myself, and I didn't want to go back to the old man.
There are colleagues who say that both are possible.
It is important to discuss beforehand what do we want today?
The sex we have had for many years, or do we want slow sex today?
I think it is important to understand what is going on today, so that both man and woman or woman and woman and man and man know exactly what is it about now?
My personal belief is that it messes everything up.
[00:31:41]
Angela Kraus
Ultimately, the exciting thing about it is that if you want to try out mindful sexuality, you start to unite it, perhaps in silence, and just watch what happens , then maybe at first there is noticeably not much going on and you think: Okay, that's the purpose?
What shoud that?
A bit strange, but then you just keep watching each other.
How is it a few hours later?
How do i feel?
Or the next day or the next few days?
How is my mood?
How is it togetherness?
How do i feel
And then I watch: How do you feel?
After some performance-oriented sex where you might have had that great three second orgasm and felt great at that moment, but how do you feel the next day?
And maybe there is a certain irritation between you and your partner for the next few days and you don't even know why.
And if you just observe it very neutrally, you will find that you can create more lasting, better or more pleasant feelings with less sensational sex.
Even if I don't have this bääm.
[00:32:49]
Lenne Kaffka
You have now said that if you have had this brief orgasm, you will be irritated the next day.
But I would suspect that there are also some couples who like it and who still experience it as something beautiful the next day.
[00:33:00]
Christoph Kraus
Yes, there are couples who need exactly that. They also need arguments in order to be able to have sex.
That has something to do with relationship dynamics.
Fortunately, relationships are so diverse and require such different framework conditions in order to meet again in bed or to be good with each other in everyday life.
But the couples can only find that out for themselves.
[00:33:20]
Angela Kraus
And in the end we are not the advocates who say slow sex is above everything, and it is the only true sexuality.
Nah, this is ours.
It's our way and it's our experience.
And there are certainly tons of people who say: No, but sadomasochism is mine or BDSM or whatever.
But our experiences that we have made are precisely these, and we accompany many people on the way there.
And they have very similar experiences.
[00:33:49]
Lenne Kaffka
Then please tell me again at the end why slow sex just feels better for you?
[00:33:54]
Angela Kraus
For me, slow sex just feels better because I have found my sensuality and because today I can welcome my man
inside of
me, into my vagina, and look forward to a sexual encounter.
And that's all pretty much the opposite of what I've experienced before.
[00:34:14]
Christoph Kraus
What
has changed for me is that I simply have a lot more sexual contact with my partner, as I wished for earlier, so that we are simply much more in contact because I also have a I am very sociable person and I am also very, very loving and appreciative of touch.
And I really appreciate that the pressure to perform has gone.
The pressure to perform, to want to please my partner or to have to learn to have learned, I am not responsible for that, but I can feel myself in my masculinity, in my presence, much, much more clearly than I ever could before.
And that feels great.
[00:34:49]
Lenne Kaffka
If you want to find out more about Angela, Christoph and Slow Sex, you can take a look at the two of them: Achtsam-lieben.de.
As always, the link is in the show notes for this episode.
And that's it for today with Smarter Life.
The next episode will be available from next Saturday on spiegel.de and wherever there are podcasts, for example on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.
If you have a suggestion or topic, simply write an email to smarterleben@spiegel.de.
This time I was supported by Philipp Fackler and Yasemin Yüksel.
Our music comes from audioBOUTIQUE.
Bye until next time.