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Rapper Kollegah (2017): "Anti-Semitism, misogyny and racism need to be clearly identified"
Photo: Lukas Seufert / HMB-Media / imago images
SPIEGEL:
Mr. Baier, the question of how anti-Semitic German-language gangsta rap is has been asked a number of times in recent years.
Do you have an answer?
Jakob Baier:
At least one development has emerged in the last 15 years: Conspiracy narratives, including anti-Semitic content, have increased in gangsta rap.
A broad debate about this sparked off at the Echo 2018.
The stumbling block was a line of text by Farid Bang.
"Kollegah combines different elements of anti-Semitism in its self-presentation and its activities."
Jakob Baier
SPIEGEL:
»My body is more defined than by Auschwitz inmates« from »0815«, a song we shared with Kollegah.
Baier: The
fact that it was precisely this line that started the debate is an expression of the fact that many people apparently have a one-dimensional understanding of anti-Semitism. As if only the historical anti-Semitism of the National Socialists were anti-Semitic. The currently virulent manifestations of anti-Semitism are currently particularly evident in conspiracy ideological and anti-Israeli positions. Kollegah in particular, who contributed to this song, combines different elements of anti-Semitism in his self-portrayal and activities - in the form of conspiracy myths that convey his Palestine "documentation" and music videos such as "Apocalypse", and above all in the form of anti-Israeli positions.
"Israel-related anti-Semitism is one of the most virulent manifestations today."
Jakob Baier
SPIEGEL:
In a recent study, you examined anti-Semitism in gangsta rap.
They differentiate between classical, secondary and Israel-related anti-Semitism.
Baier:
Classical anti-Semitism refers to the form that developed in the second half of the 19th century, when the religiously based hatred of Jews was further developed into pseudo-scientifically based "modern" anti-Semitism. At the core of this ideology was the idea that the Jews were an inferior race of their own and that there was a Jewish world conspiracy. Post-Shoah anti-Semitism that manifested itself after 1945 is referred to as "secondary". Forms of defense against guilt and the refusal to remember play a role, including relativization or even denial of the Shoah. Israel-related anti-Semitism is one of the most virulent manifestations today. In it, the Jewish state serves as a projection surface for anti-Semitic thinking and action.
SPIEGEL:
Is Israel-related anti-Semitism also one of the most virulent manifestations in gangsta rap?
Baier:
Certain songs, music videos or social media statements by gangsta rappers contain ideological conspiracy statements and anti-Israeli statements.
Whereby one has to argue carefully.
There are gradations.
Most of the time, there is a conglomerate of anti-Semitic ideological fragments in these posts, for example when individual rappers combine anti-Israel positions with conspiracy narratives.
Sometimes these are hints, sometimes very explicit.
»Gangsta rap is a broad phenomenon.«
Jakob Baier
SPIEGEL:
In your study you not only dealt with gangsta rappers, but also with young listeners.
What do they look like?
Baier:
Our surveys in the NRW regional study show that gangsta rap listeners mostly have a medium family wealth and some have a high one.
If you compare that with non-listeners, they even have a little more resources.
That means: We have to say goodbye to the idea that gangsta rap is a musical culture to which precarious young people in particular feel a part, the so-called left-behind.
Gangsta rap is a broad phenomenon.
SPIEGEL:
In the study, you state that there is a "demonstrable affinity among gangsta rap listeners for anti-Semitism."
How do you come to this conclusion?
Baier:
We first asked the young people who of them listened to gangsta rap and why.
Then we asked young people about anti-Semitic, but also racist and misogynistic attitudes.
We compared that with each other, and it turned out that there are correlations: Young people who listen to a lot of gangsta rap also tend to be more inclined to anti-Semitic attitudes.
This is a central finding of the study.
Another is that the same is true of misogyny.
SPIEGEL:
Gangsta rap listeners are more inclined to represent misogynistic attitudes?
"I wonder whether the major label executives who distributed Kollegah's music knew which anti-Semitic text and image borrowings his music video› Apocalypse ‹contains."
Jakob Baier
Baier: The
picture is similar.
That’s consistent.
Nevertheless, I am in favor of viewing these results with caution.
We have done an initial exploratory study that ventures into this dark field.
There are measurable connections, but they are primarily to be understood as a mandate for further research.
We were able to determine correlations, but the following motto applies in social research: correlation is not the same as causality.
So we cannot say whether young people listen to gangsta rap and therefore internalize such tendencies, or whether young people who already tend towards these tendencies are attracted by the content of the genre.
SPIEGEL:
How receptive are listeners to conspiracy theories in general?
"If someone raps about the fact that the earth is flat, they reject it."
Jakob Baier
Baier:
Our qualitative study showed that adolescents tend to have a distant relationship to conspiracy theories in gangsta rap.
If someone raps about the fact that the earth is flat, they reject it.
That is implausible for them.
It has also been shown, however, that young people tend to adopt a Manichaean view of the world, that is, a view of the world that organizes the environment according to apparently clear dichotomous categories: friend or foe.
Above and below.
Good and evil.
SPIEGEL:
“Boss” or “Leek”, to paraphrase Kollegah.
Baier:
Yes, nothing in between, just two pages.
That's pretty common in gangsta rap.
And if the youngsters tend to interpret the world like that, at some point they can also be approachable for conspiracy narratives that are structured in this way.
SPIEGEL:
One of your recommendations for action is "to make music organizers, promoters and label managers as well as radio stations and streaming service providers (...) aware of the misanthropic content in music (...)".
Don't you think that they are already aware of such content, but that they accept it because the music is very successful commercially?
Baier:
One would assume that those responsible for labels, for example, listen to the music carefully and then decide whether to publish it.
I fear that this is not always the case.
It's not about demonizing gangsta rap in general, but I wonder if the major label executives who distributed Kollegah's music knew which anti-Semitic text and image borrowings his music video "Apocalypse" contained.
Did they really look there?
SPIEGEL:
What do you think of parents who would like to forbid their children from listening to gangsta rap?
Baier:
There's no point in saying: "Hey, you shouldn't hear that, that's bad music." Instead, you have to gain an understanding of why this music can be attractive to young people. First of all, especially when it comes to working with young people, you have to show an interest in what they hear and understand why they are doing it - and then discuss it critically. Nonetheless, anti-Semitism, misogyny and racism need to be clearly identified and criticized. You have to include young gangsta rap consumers in such discussions as well as the rappers themselves. They rightly have the feeling that you often only talk about them, but not with them.