"It is surprising that in developed countries three years are enough to get a degree and in Argentina five,"
Francesc Pedró, director of the UNESCO International Institute for Higher Education in Latin America
, told
Clarín .
He said it in an interview with this newspaper in the framework of the International Congress of Educational Innovation that was held in Monterrey, Mexico.
Pedró is a specialist in comparative education (between different countries), author of several books and with extensive experience in university policies.
Of Catalan origin, he came to Unesco 20 years ago after his time at the OECD.
Since 2019 he has directed the area of higher education in that organization
.
- What are the main challenges for universities in the region?
- Mainly, quality and equity.
We barely get 46% of those who start a career in the region to finish it at some point in their lives.
Every second.
And I'm not talking about how many years it will take.
In Argentina we know that the average is 9 years for careers that should last 5. And that tells us about different variables related to quality.
For example, what is your experience like when you are in college, are you being treated well, are you learning something relevant and pertinent, are you going to get a good job or an environment in which you can grow as a person or citizen, as a human being? political and cultural human.
In addition, the difference in terms of access between the highest social quintile -with the highest income- and the lowest is very large.
It is not double or triple.
It is 4 times, and in some countries of the region,
"We barely managed to get 46% of those who start a career in the region to finish it at some point in their lives," says Francesc Pedró, from Unesco.
- And in European or central countries?
- Approximately 0.5.
- What strengths and weaknesses do you see in the Argentine university system?
- It is a system characterized by a great desire for democratization.
But we all know the implications that the lack of barriers to access -because tariffs were lifted- can have.
For example, it translates into lower graduation rates, a lack of incentive: people enroll and then decide whether or not to go.
It is a good example of a country that very early had a policy aimed at democratizing access -which makes itself felt in the fact that there is no province that does not have at least one national university-, but at the same time one of the great weaknesses is that the research function -which the great universities of the country should fulfill- is half detached from the system.
You have a Conicet that capitalizes on the research that is subtracted from the university, especially the public one,
where it should be a very important part of your daily work.
The university cannot be conceived without at least that duality between teaching and research.
It seems that in Argentina teaching comes first and then, if we can, if we have time, we do some research.
When in reality, in the classical model of universities, we first produce knowledge that we then transmit.
- What is Unesco's vision regarding the duration of the races?
- International trends, and what Unesco advocates, is to try to achieve shorter qualifications.
For example, the classic 3 + 2 or 3 + 1 model, that is, you can get the first degree, if you continue normally, after 3 years.
And then 1 or 2 more years.
It is surprising that in developed countries 3 years are enough to obtain a degree that in Argentina requires 5 years.
The question is to what extent this transformation that has occurred in more advanced countries cannot also occur in Argentina.
When I studied my degree, political science, he was 5 years old and now he is 3.
- The content is the same?
- But excuse me.
Is the content what should measure the career or the skills that you develop?
Because then the question is, do you go to the university to be given a list of content that you then have to return in terms of the exam or do you go, on the contrary, to develop some skills that can make you a researcher or a professional?
The equation must be solved not based on -which is what has always happened traditionally- I am a tenured professor here, there is another there, let's see how many hours you take, how many I take.
Because behind that I come with my army of teachers, assistants, in short... it's like that all over the world.
Quality assurance agencies can play a very important role in this regard by deconstructing the programs and saying, for example, today to be a dentist,
what do we expect him to know how to do?
He has to build prosthetics, well then let's see how long it takes.
Can we do that in 3 years?
If not, let it be 4. Because if it is made shorter, public resources are saved and, furthermore, if they have done so in a very significant number of countries, it is probably that it can be done.
Is it necessary to start then with the skills and abilities and then see how you get there?
Sure, skills are actually a layer of complexity added to content.
I am not worried that a dentist knows what each of the teeth is called.
What worries me is that I heal when I have a cavity.
Probably to cure myself I have to know how to name each of the teeth and understand how the roots work, etc.
But what I want from a dentist is for him to cure me, not for him to know the name of each one of my teeth.
"I am not worried that a dentist knows what each tooth is called, but that I am cured when I have a cavity," says Francesc Pedró, from Unesco.
- Does this apply to all careers, including social ones?
- Sure, because I think that what it is about is not only having the content but also being able to operate with the content.
It's not just a matter of how many whiteboard hours you're going to give me but what the engineering of the process is.
- Another topic that is in vogue is that of micro-credentials, accrediting small sections of knowledge. Some voices point to it as a concession from universities to companies. What is your vision?
- Unesco's vision is that academic programs are one thing, even if they are professionalizing, and another is the particular needs of a certain sector of economic activity.
For example, today the one linked to the world of technology, which is the one that has experienced the most stress so far in terms of having to rush to have individuals with the necessary skills to be able to develop those products that, if I don't do them, they will. the Indians or they will make them in the United States.
I think you have to be consistent and imagine that why not?
Universities, particularly engineering faculties and perhaps some others, can launch an offer of short training courses if they understand that this responds to a necessary urgent demand from the business environment. Is that a concession to companies?
Okay, yes.
It is also a service to professionals, right?
So what's up?
Many universities look at micro-credentials as just an appetizer, that is, they try to lure the student by promising that if they get 20 or 25 micro-credentials, suddenly they will be an engineer.
But they are different logics.
One is the traditional one, that engineering is one and has its powers.
And another that the university provides a service to technology companies and the workers of those companies, offering them a quick response to a training need that has emerged and that may not be there next year.
they try to lure the student in by promising that if he gets 20 or 25 microcredentials he'll soon be an engineer.
But they are different logics.
One is the traditional one, that engineering is one and has its powers.
And another that the university provides a service to technology companies and the workers of those companies, offering them a quick response to a training need that has emerged and that may not be there next year.
they try to lure the student in by promising that if he gets 20 or 25 microcredentials he'll soon be an engineer.
But they are different logics.
One is the traditional one, that engineering is one and has its powers.
And another that the university provides a service to technology companies and the workers of those companies, offering them a quick response to a training need that has emerged and that may not be there next year.
- But can the microcredential be part of a career?
- It could be, but I insist, it is not logic.
The logic is, for example, we have released a new cell phone model and we have to develop a new application and for that we need a language that has just been designed.
Can you give me a 5 hour course right now?
I set it up for you and there you have it and you leave here being able, in 5 hours, to program what is needed.
- Are there universities in Latin America that are doing it?
The institute I run has started an investigation to try to find out who is doing it.
I could tell you that micro-credentials are in the discourse of all the rectors I know, but I think that in practice they are all very lost.
People don't quite understand what it is.
Is it deconstructing the subjects and I'll sell them to you?
I don't think that's a microcredential.
- But do they exist in the central countries?
- Yes Yes.
- And does it work well?
- Yes. But you have to understand that this does not work for all areas.
It is basically a rapid detection of training needs and an immediate response.
And that means that today you give this microcredential and next year you will no longer have it.
Because perhaps that need no longer exists And that contradicts the conservative spirit that the university has.
- What are UNESCO's recommendations for higher education?
- We have launched a document that is the roadmap for the transformation of higher education, which is open on the Web.
It is an opportunity for anyone (whether university or not) to leave their comments about how they would like higher education to be globally or in their country.
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