Bavaria's Justice Minister Georg Eisenreich took a cabaret course with Helmut Schleich more than 20 years ago.
In the middle of carnival, a double interview about the importance of humor - and its limits.
Where does the fun stop?
There's his name.
"Georg Eisenreich", carefully entered in the course list of the Young Adult Education Center.
Seminar topic: Cabaret.
Autumn semester 1998/99.
"It's been a long time," says Eisenreich with a smile when he sees the list that cabaret artist Helmut Schleich brought to our interview.
He was the course leader at the time and remembers his “student” Georg well.
"I still have all the texts that he wrote in the course - but unfortunately there is nothing in them that could get him into trouble today," says Schleich with a laugh.
Because today Georg Eisenreich is the Bavarian Minister of Justice.
And as someone who used to play on cabaret stages himself, he is a suitable person to talk to when it comes to the question of where the legal and human limits of humor lie.
in the middle of carnival,
Is it even possible to teach cabaret?
Helmut Schleich:
Cabaret is 90 percent text work.
You can teach tricks there, but if you don't have a certain talent for writing, it will be difficult.
But what it also needs as a cabaret artist: stage presence.
There are examples of people who are good writers and intellectually strong - but who fail to engage the audience.
Then you have no chance in this job.
How was it for you, Mr. Eisenreich? When you watch videos from back then, do you like your stage presence?
Georg Eisenreich:
It's never easy to see yourself.
But I think my lyrics were quite good - they worked.
I remember clearly how exciting it was to present them in front of an audience for the first time.
There you are on stage, and people actually laugh at the punch lines.
To feel that was indescribable!
Helmut Schleich:
Especially at the beginning of your career, you tend to underestimate how intensively people work together.
They go to cabaret because they feel like thinking.
What they are already thinking ahead!
The mastery lies in being so fast that you constantly surprise the audience.
Therefore: shorten the texts, condense them.
And trust that a hint is usually enough.
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Helmut Schleich (right) brought the list of the cabaret adult education course from 1998 to the interview with culture editor Katja Kraft.
Georg Eisenreich (left) immediately rediscovered his name.
© Oliver Bodmer
Is that something you learned for politics, where short speeches are such a thing?
Georg Eisenreich:
Yes.
When the fifth speaker begins with Karl Valentin: "Everything has already been said, just not by everyone" - then such an evening drags on for the audience.
For these reasons, many are now damaged by greetings.
I try to only talk as long as necessary.
And where possible, I also want to be a little entertaining.
Have you seriously considered doing cabaret full-time?
Georg Eisenreich:
I always wanted to be a lawyer, but I would have continued doing cabaret on the side if I hadn't been elected to the city council in 2002 and then to the state parliament in 2003.
Helmut Schleich:
From the cabaret to the cabinet!
In the case of some figures in Berlin, this can sometimes hardly be distinguished today...
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On the cabaret stage: Georg Eisenreich in his late twenties.
He advertised his program with this picture.
© Private
Now, as Minister of Justice, you have the perfect source of inspiration for cabaret after your political career. Are you already collecting for this?
Georg Eisenreich:
I actually do.
As a politician, you read newspaper articles from a different perspective than a cabaret artist.
But I see not only the political, but also the comic aspect.
I collect that.
What I don't do is real text work.
It's too much work, I don't have the time.
Helmut Schleich:
However, I'll tell you: The crazy thing about cabaret is that if you don't translate what you've gathered into a text very quickly, it often becomes such an erratic block that you don't know anymore a year or two later: What was it actually about? funny?
Even with supposedly timeless cabaret, the half-life of the punchlines is not very long.
Because society is changing.
There are enough topics that you shouldn't even mention on stage today, but five years ago they were general thigh-slapping.
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In a double interview: (from left) Bavaria's Minister of Justice Georg Eisenreich, culture editor Katja Kraft and cabaret artist Helmut Schleich in the Munich press building
© Oliver Bodmer
Good cue! In 2018, the Altneihauser Feierwehrkapell'n caused outrage because they sang about France's First Lady Brigitte Macron at the "Fastnacht in Franken" as a "well run-in sled" and "the sharpest old hut in the middle of Paris". You defended that in a letter to the editor at the time, Herr Schleich. Can humor do anything?
Helmut Schleich:
First of all, it was carnival, there are different standards for me than in cabaret.
And secondly, I'm sticking to it: A Ms. Macron who consciously uses her appearance to campaign, i.e. to gain power as a result, has to live with the fact that the people make fun of it.
Where does the fun stop?
Helmut Schleich:
When you threaten them or personally insult them.
If I were Brigitte Macron, I would find that very insulting.
Helmut Schleich:
You're free to do that.
It is just that the powerful are always subject to the ridicule of the people.
And mockery means mockery, because he just mocks and not only deals with content on an intellectually subtle foil level.
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With the cabaret programs in which he once appeared: today's Bavarian Minister of Justice Georg Eisenreich.
© Oliver Bodmer
How do you see that, also from a legal perspective, Minister of Justice?
Georg Eisenreich:
I think you have to differentiate between two things.
One is the assessment of whether you like a joke or not.
The other is the question: is the joke allowed or not allowed?
There are clear limits.
Artistic freedom and freedom of expression apply in our country.
Fundamental rights end where criminal law begins.
Insults, slander, defamation, hate speech are not permitted.
A tasteless joke, on the other hand, is not punishable.
You have to separate that.
I find these sayings about Brigitte Macron neither funny nor tasteful.
But we must not judge the "permissibility" of sayings and jokes based on questions of taste.
How is insult legally defined?
Georg Eisenreich:
The insult is an unlawful attack on honor.
Insult is a request offense.
If no criminal complaint is filed, it will not be prosecuted.
That's the legal aspect.
However, as long as the legal limit is not exceeded, a free society absolutely needs debates and controversies.
However, those who provoke must also face criticism.
You too, Herr Schleich, triggered a debate with the character of Maxwell Strauss. You are accused of racism.
Helmut Schleich:
And I resist it because it deliberately takes the number out of context.
Maxwell Strauss, who I play with my face painted black, is my invention of an illegitimate son of Franz Josef Strauss, who runs such a neo-colonial Bavaria in Africa.
I think that's a very nice construct to reflect certain processes with us there.
It was about pointing out conditions in our country, nothing else.
The fact that he is black is simply because the CSU is traditionally referred to as "the blacks".
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Controversial: The fact that Helmut Schleich plays the character of Maxwell Strauss with his face painted black brought him criticism.
© Arnulf Hettrich
Have we become overly sensitive to humor?
Helmut Schleich:
Yes.
It's just jokes!
They can be bad, they can be funny.
Some may feel offended, but just because someone is offended doesn't mean they are right.
That's the concept of a joke: to irritate.
This concept doesn't seem very popular at the moment.
George Eisenreich:
It's complex.
Because we now have a real social problem when it comes to hate and hate speech, especially on the Internet.
This has reached a dimension that is really dangerous to democracy.
I think that many people have become more sensitive because of this.
That is a good thing.
Because you have to defend yourself against the poisoning of the climate, especially in social networks.
But that's why you shouldn't make the mistake of humor and satire and decide like a censorship authority which jokes are allowed and which are not.
The limits are set by the applicable law and not by personal taste or supposed political correctness.
What about jokes about religions? The editorial office of the magazine "Charlie Hebdo" was the victim of a terrorist attack because of its cartoons of Mohammed. At the start of the trial against accomplices, the magazine reprinted the caricature. An unnecessary provocation?
Helmut Schleich:
I thought it was really brave.
There was such a massive attack on our free society, it couldn't be more massive than shooting the people in the editorial office.
You can't put that into perspective with arguments like: "You provoked that yourself." That's exactly where you have to say: No, folks, that doesn't work for us.
For me, the most beautiful cabaret title that has ever existed, by Richard Rogler, fits in there: "Endure Freedom".
You politicians also have to put up with a lot, Georg.
However, cabaret artists should not make fun of the people, but of what they do in their political function.
There we are again with Brigitte Macron: She has no political function. What is being held against her is that she is old and cares about her appearance. So basically all older women are made fun of.
Helmut Schleich:
Now you think you've got me.
(laughs)
Yes, I understand that too.
But Brigitte Macron has the function of embodying the beautiful image of the great president in the Yellow Press - and you can scratch this image.
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"Cabaret can also hurt," says cabaret artist Helmut Schleich.
© Oliver Bodmer
Cabaret must hurt?
Helmut Schleich:
It doesn't have to be, but it can also hurt.
Above all, it has to be funny.
Entertaining.
Georg Eisenreich:
It can also be sneaky.
Helmut Schleich:
By the way, that's one of the nicest things when it's insidious.
Georg Eisenreich:
What it shouldn't be is boring.
Cabaret artists have no license to be boring.
Having attitude doesn't mean forgetting to entertain.
Helmut Schleich:
Unfortunately, this is a phenomenon that is spreading rapidly.
So we're back to Charlie Hebdo.
Here was the latent accusation: One must not make fun of Mohammed.
Where I say: On the contrary, we have to make fun of ourselves!
When we stop making fun of ourselves, it becomes difficult, because then you get into that kind of preaching that unfortunately is rampant in cabaret.
Georg Eisenreich:
If you want to give political speeches, you shouldn't go on stage, but rather go into politics.
As a cabaret artist, you also have to have artistic standards.
Certainly some political speech is also high art, but there is a big difference between the two spheres.
Can you challenge the viewers, leave them alone with blatant punch lines?
Helmut Schleich:
Yes, you can irritate people and everything, but of course it's great when you manage to leave the evening with a certain cheerfulness, not bitterness.
Because that's the difficult limit, where you don't know: How does such bitterness then turn into some kind of hatred or malice.
But during the program, I think you can do just about anything.
Georg Eisenreich:
As is well known, Tucholsky, who I admire, said: Satire is allowed to do anything.
As Minister of Justice, I have to add: “Satire is allowed to do everything.
Except for crimes.”
Helmut Schleich:
Yes, everything has to be satire, actually.
I agree with Werner Finck: "Those who feel addressed are meant."