On paper, this is the dream interview. Animating, exclusively, a conversation between Maïwenn and Johnny Depp on the eve of the presentation of Jeanne du Barry at the opening of the Cannes Film Festival, what a royal godsend! In her first costume film, the director offered herself the title role while Jack Sparrow/Willy Wonka/Edward plays Louis XV, her lover. Of course, after the legal and marital troubles of the star muse of the perfume Dior Sauvage, we were inundated, like everyone else, rumors of tensions on the set that the press and networks feasted. The staging of this meeting was not itself free of twists and turns. In addition, both are wary of the media: "I hate shortcuts and labels, but obviously, it does storytelling. I sometimes read articles without nuance, without complexity, caricature, and I find it sad, "comments Maïwenn.
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"Some choose a word, a phrase, and sometimes it's taken up by everyone, without any verification," notes Johnny Depp. So be careful. Let's leave aside everything that is upsetting. Let's take advantage of them two and each one, ultimately incredibly available, despite everything and despite their tight timings. She is currently finalizing her film, in post-production. He is preparing the realization of a biopic on Modigliani, with his great friend Al Pacino as producer, of which he gives us an ineffable imitation: "Hey Johnny, remember that Modigliani thing I was goint to direct? I've got an idea, how about you? You do it, I want you to direct Modigliani!" ("Hey Johnny, remember that Modigliani thing I wanted to do? I have an idea, why not you? Do it, I'd like you to make this movie!")
In video, The trailer of Jeanne du Barry
"A fairy tale in reverse"
Mrs. Figaro. – Maïwenn, why Jeanne du Barry?
Maïwenn. – I discovered her in Sofia Coppola's Marie-Antoinette, where she was played by Asia Argento. I was intrigued, attracted by this character, I researched a lot and what I read confirmed the connivance I sensed. Beautiful "loser", this woman will rise in the social class, then lose everything. It's a fairy tale in reverse.
Scenario in hand, you are looking for your LouisXV ...
M.– I started by asking a French actor: he couldn't. Then a second, a third... None were available. So, I crossed borders and listened to my dreams. I sent an email and, to my surprise, received a reply. Appointment was made in London with Johnny Depp.
How was that first interview?
M.–It was great! We started at 15 p.m. and had to finish at midnight. Johnny is a very nice person, very gentle. He is also extremely erudite about painting, literature, French culture, history. We talked about almost everything – about his life in London, what makes him happy, etc. –Everything... except cinema!
Bustier in silk velvet and taffeta petticoat, Chanel – costume specially created by Chanel for the film Jeanne Du Barry, by Maïwenn. Personal collar.
Chanel make-up by Angloma: Chanel N° 1 treatment, Red Camellia Serum and Rich Revitalizing Cream; Beiges Touche de Complexion BD21, Beiges Powder Belle Mine Naturelle No. 20; on cheekbones, N° 1 of Chanel Balm Lips and Cheeks Lively Rosewood and Balm Essentiel Transparent; Black Allure Black mascara; and Rouge Allure Velvet Essentiel lipstick. Jean-Baptiste Mondino
Johnny, what memories do you have of this meeting?
Johnny Depp. –Astonishment first! Here's a bizarre proposition: why me? Why not a French actor? Before this meeting, I watched Maïwenn's films. I saw the passion she put into her work. When we met, I recognized someone belonging to the same tribe as mine, who shares the same interests in art, literature, cinema. She also has a precise aesthetic vision, and, like me, a curiosity to travel in time... We also laughed a lot, and I said yes!
How did one become LouisXV?
J. D. – By becoming several people, but always in a regal posture and, above all, very slow! (Laughter.) Time passes with infinite slowness at Versailles, especially for the king who displays permanent control even in his movements, very contained, but which are sometimes worth all speeches. The king changes his behavior according to the company: his children, his advisors, his valets, the courtiers, and, of course, his favorite. He hardly moves or speaks. Everything passes in his gestures and expressions. It is probably with his first valet, Jean-Benjamin de La Borde, that he can be the most himself, really drop the mask.
You can't do the same take 18 times in the same way. So, whether a director likes it or not, I need to give 18 different versions.
Johnny Depp
Was it a challenge for you, Johnny, to play this role in French?
J. D. – It took me out of my comfort zone. I speak French pretty much like a 3-year-old so imagine for the old French of the eighteenth century... (Laughter.) For this role, I wanted to be comfortable enough with the language of the time to be able to improvise. So I worked and rehearsed with a teacher, Mathilde Bertrand. What matters to me in a role is not the language but the meaning of the words. So I would ask him questions about the hidden meaning of certain expressions or turns of phrase, and then I would use them to play. Improvisation can bring the scene to another place, it's always interesting, but for that, I had to be sure of myself in relation to your language.
See alsoThis photo of Johnny Depp behind the scenes of the filming of Jeanne du Barry, guitar in hand and cigarillo in the mouth
"We talked a lot, Johnny always stays very attentive"
Maïwenn, was it difficult to be both in front of and behind the camera?
M.– Before starting this shoot, I felt immense stress, I hardly slept anymore, just three or four hours a night because it was my first film in costume, with a considerable budget. Once filming began, apprehension gave way to concentration. I was in my subject, in my script, I was not unaware that it was going to be hard. Before every big scene, I knew very well how much it was going to cost – the horses, the extras, the sets... But I was used to the exercise. I had already directed films with this dual role of actress/director. With DNA, I had started my inner journey on what it means to play in my own films... That said, it's also complicated when you're only in one position. I like being part of the team of actors. We are together, they support me and I support them, in the game and through the game. And strangely, I even manage to get staging ideas across by acting. Going back to the character, Jeanne is someone who suffers the story and, gradually, allows herself to be destroyed.
Maïwenn and Johnny Depp in Jeanne du Barry. Stéphanie Branchu / Whynot Productions
Directing and playing with Johnny Depp, what was it like?
M.–The times when there could be divergences, it was because Johnny arrived on the set with an idea of the scene in relation to the character he had built beforehand. He worked a lot before the shooting, he did a lot of research. So we sometimes had disagreements around questions like: what is the king? What can he say or not... We talked a lot, Johnny always listened to it. Most of the time, we ended up getting along. When we couldn't, I asked him to play the scene as I had written it, and afterwards, we also shot what he proposed. What do I take away from it? I like that an actor proposes. If he proposes, it is because he wants the film to be successful.
J. D. – I need to feel totally invested, to be part of the film. I don't know of any other way of working, whether we accept it or not. When someone believes in you enough to offer you a role, it's important, even courageous. Maïwenn had the courage to trust me. We talked a lot before the shoot. For me, there is only one thing that an actor can give to a director that will help him in the editing room: options. If there are no surprises, there is no spark. You can't do the same take 18 times in the same way. So, whether a director likes it or not, I need to give 18 different versions. I feel it's my duty as an actor.
When I shoot in a film, my first thought is: what can I bring that is not there?
Johnny Depp
La du Barry depends on the king's desire: a metaphor for the life of an actor?
J. D. – When I shoot in a film, my first thought is: what can I bring that is not there? I knew very quickly, a long time ago, when I was trying to get kicked off the set of the 21 Jump Street series – between us, I still can't believe they didn't! –, that I was still given an incredible chance to do this job. But at the same time, at that time, the people in the studios had a preconceived image of me in which I did not recognize myself. I quickly realized that everything can blow up in your face and that in an instant, you can go back to work at a gas station. I was willing to take the risk. I'm always willing to take risks.
M.– It's huge to arouse desire. And to feel it. What I love about Jeanne is that she never felt devalued when she was wanted as a courtesan. She loved being desired, both physically and intellectually. As for acting, it is very hard if you do not have other passions in life. It's so random, fragile. An actor who arrives at a cast with another passion will always be more charismatic, because he will be less afraid. That's how I would define charisma: by the absence of fear. That's why I love working either with stars or with non-professional actors. In both cases, for them, working with me is not an issue. It may be a bit twisted, but I have more desire to work with someone who has something else to do in life than to tour with me than with someone who will give everything, everything, give everything for me!
"The greatest power is charm"
Court intrigues, power games, women's place... How do we read this story today?
J. D. – What immediately comes to mind is that at the time, corruption looked more elegant... Make no mistake about my words: it was cruel and brutal. And today it is still cruel and brutal, but without any grace. For women, the hierarchical system was simply crazy. If they have always occupied an essential position in decision-making – Madame de Pompadour was akin to what I would call a consigliere – only a few powerful women managed to impose themselves. The majority of the others had no recognition. When we think about the vital role of women in human history...
M.– Obviously, the condition of women in our society is no longer that of the court of Versailles. But rich and powerful men continue to procure women as one would buy a commodity. Everything can be bought. In the other direction too: a woman of power can afford a gigolo. Nevertheless, women still do not have the beautiful role. Professionally, they must prove themselves and, at the same time, decide whether or not to start a family. The biological clock sets the limits. It's hard and very unfair: we want to work, earn as much as men, be in love, have children, make no concessions...
I am touched by Jeanne, who changes the rules, does not comply with the codes. I see it as a bit of a metaphor for when I arrived in the film industry.
Maïwenn
Between LouisXV and Jeanne du Barry, who really has the power?
M.–It fascinates me to observe how a man, and especially a man of power, reacts to the charms of a woman. All of a sudden, he becomes very weak, his power evaporates and immediately ends up in the hands of the woman. Very often it is said that men of power have influence. Surely... But the greatest power, I think is charm, sensuality, sex. An enormous power over the human being!
Cotton shirt, Chanel, cotton pants, Dawei. Chanel Jewelry rings, personal necklace, Church's loafers.
John Nollet hairstyle for the Forty-One Studio Paris. Manicure Brenda Abrial.
Chanel make-up by Angloma: Chanel N° 1 treatment, Red Camellia Serum and Rich Revitalizing Cream; Beiges Touche de Complexion BD21, Beiges Powder Belle Mine Naturelle No. 20; on cheekbones, N° 1 of Chanel Balm Lips and Cheeks Lively Rosewood and Balm Essentiel Transparent; Black Allure Black mascara; and Rouge Allure Velvet Essentiel lipstick. Jean-Baptiste Mondino
In the film, at a decisive moment, Joan defies convention and looks the king in the eye... In your careers, what were the decisive moments?
M.–I am touched by Jeanne, who changes the rules, does not comply with the codes. I see it as a bit of a metaphor for when I arrived in the film industry. I became a director a bit by chance. My first film, Forgive Me, was my defining moment. I had written a script of about twenty pages, that he does not make eighty was already seen as something punk! And then I self-produced. Everyone was telling me, "Definitely not! Don't put your own money! That's not how you make movies." I didn't give up. It was neither a whim nor the desire to shake up the rules as an end in itself. I could only do things that looked like me.
J. D. – I remember that at the end of the shooting of Gilbert Grape, I was washed, I was going through a very dark moment, I felt like the comic book guy walking around with a black cloud over his head. I was coming out of a series of very strange characters: Edward Scissorhands, Arizona Dream, Benny and Joon..., it was grinding in my head. I carried a lot of heaviness in me and I said to myself: "But this is not possible! This job is supposed to be fun!" And then I shot EdWood and I felt like I was being propelled from a cannon. It was a watershed moment. I thought, "Enough! I leave all this behind, I start again, I'm going to be free!"
"If you are less involved, then nothing can stop you"
What advice would you give yourself if you were 20years old today?
J. D. – My problem was that at the time, the characters were so important to me, meant so much to me, that it became too much. I had to get to a point where I cared so much that I couldn't take it anymore... But if you are less involved, then nothing can stop you, you are free as a bird.
M.–Perhaps I was too naïve, too nice. Not on a professional level, but on a human level, sentimental and family relationships. I find myself much more radical today, and that's good, because I have been disappointed by people humanly.
Read alsoJohn Nollet: "I worked in absolute osmosis with Maïwenn on the set of Jeanne du Barry
»And your children, do you give them advice?
J. D. – With Vanessa (Editor's note: Paradise, his ex-partner, mother of his twochildren), we raised them with the assurance that they could come and talk to us, confide in us and ask us for help for absolutely everything. But, personally, I don't like to give too much advice, unless I perceive something murky... in which case I am trying to intervene. Lily Rose is very clever, she has always been one of those people who observes with finesse and lucidity what surrounds her, who works with application without saying a word. She is incredibly beautiful, intelligent, attentive to others. It's a bright star. And I'm objective, of course! My two children are my pride.
M.– Mine are at an age where they no longer want to receive advice. They want to prove that they can do things on their own. I hope there will be a second wind where they listen to their parents again... But until then, my only mission is just to love them.
Maïwenn and Johnny Depp in Jeanne du Barry. Stéphanie Branchu / Whynot Productions
When we think of Joan's fate, we think that, despite his love for her, the king abandons her to his fate...
M.– The moment when she finds herself facing her civil status... Like during the lockdown, when human beings found themselves facing their civil status: if you are single, you are alone as a dog.
Precisely, what was the lesson of the confinement?
M.– Apart from a ton of suffering, not much. I was very lonely, my children were each on their own... But beyond that, the big lesson is that I do an extremely fragile job. Overnight, I didn't earn anything, my film (DNA, editor's note) stayed in theaters for two days... Theatres and cinemas were closed, despite the seriousness of the sanitary measures. I felt a great contempt for artists. Since then, I have been very careful about the money I have set aside and I will never see my job in the same way again.
J. D. – What a strange time... The whole of humanity was plunged into fear, which made me feel very guilty because I had this great luxury of being able to live in my house in the south of the France and walk around. But the more I felt guilty, the more I worked. I've painted dozens of paintings, I've spent time on the book I've been writing for seven years, and I've recorded an album (with Jeff Beck). Music is really the fixed point of my life. I bought my first guitar when I was 12 – a cheap thing, for a few dollars – I learned to play it on my own, and I never stopped. Next to my children, it is my great and first love, forever.
I think we are much more comfortable in front of a mirror when we feel another loving, gentle, benevolent look on ourselves.
Maïwenn
Johhny, For each of your characters, you make a playlist that accompanies you during the shooting. What is the soundtrack of the King of France?
J. D. – Ah! It took a sound for circumstances with great pomp: it went from Air on the G string, by Johann Sebastian Bach, to Ace of Spades, by Motörhead!
What is your idea of a perfect day?
J. D. – For me, it's simple: my children gathered around me, with Vanessa and the family. Yes, children and family, that's all.
M.– When everything I love comes together in one day. My lover, an exchange with my children, a good big dose of cinema or literature, a pinch of news... That was the day I managed to reconcile everything. With a little dancing, too! I love doing floor bar. In front of an ice cream, you look at your body, focus on exercise, and start thinking a little differently.
A perfect day for me, it's simple: my children gathered around me, with Vanessa and the family
Johnny Depp
Can you look at yourself with benevolence alone in front of a mirror?
M.– I think we are much more comfortable in front of a mirror when we feel another loving, gentle, benevolent look on ourselves. Even if, personally, I have always tried not to be dependent on the gaze of a man. For me, happiness is being and feeling emotionally independent – financially, of course. True happiness is not being addicted. Not to his children, not to his lover, not to his work, not even to the cigarette or the café... A true independence of mind, that's happiness!
And you, Johnny, what makes you happy?
J. D. –Well! Wake up and breathe!