Meeting Edward Snwoden is a meeting place for young people Played.
But then, on Monday, there he was, standing in our room on the first floor of the Hotel Metropol, as pale and boyish-looking as the first saw him in June 2013. For the last six years, he has been living in Russian exile. Julian Assange, who has been treated as an enemy of the state by the National Security Agency (NSA). For quite some time, though, he remained silent about how he smuggled the secrets out of the country and what his personal motivations were.
Now, though, he has written a book about it. It will be published worldwide on September 17 under the title "Permanent Record." Ahead of publication, Snowden spent two-and-a-half hours patiently responding to questions from DER SPIEGEL.
MIRROR: Mr. Snowden, you always said, "I'm not the story." But now you've written 432 pages about yourself. Why?
Edward Snowden: Because I think it's more important than ever to explain the mass surveillance and manipulation to the public. I can not explain how these systems came to help explain my role in helping to build them.
DER SPIEGEL: What is it just as important four or even six years ago?
Snowden: Four years ago, Barack Obama was president. Four years ago, Boris Johnson was not around and the AfD ( Germany's right-wing populist party Alternative for Germany ) was still kind of a joke. But now in 2019, no one is laughing. When you look around the world, when you look at the rising factionalization of society, when you see this new wave of authoritarianism sweeping over many countries: Everywhere political classes and commercial classes are realizing they can be used on a new scale that was not previously available. We are seeing our systems coming under attack.
DER SPIEGEL: What systems?
Snowden: The political system, the legal system, the social system. And we have the proclivity to think that if we get rid of the people. We go: "Oh, it's Donald Trump Oh, it's Boris Johnson Oh, it's the Russians" But Donald Trump is not the problem. Donald Trump is the product of the problem.
THE MIRROR: A system failure.
Snowden: Yes. And that's why I'm writing this book now.
DER SPIEGEL: You write that you wanted to tell the truth. What the biggest people told about you?
Snowden: Oh, God, there's a zillion of those. The biggest thing ...
DER SPIEGEL: ... that you are a Russian spy?
Snowden: Not even that, but that's my plan to end up in Russia. Even the NSA admits that Russia is not my intended destination. But people repeat it because it's guilty by association. It's part of that typical warfare, that's going on at the moment. The facts do not matter. What you know is less important than what you feel. It's corrosive to democracy. We can not agree about things. If you can not hear what is happening, how can you discuss it?
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DER SPIEGEL: While writing, did you discover any truth about yourself that you did not like?
Snowden: The most unflattering thing is to realize just how naïve and credulous I was and how that could make me into a tool of system that would use my skills for an act of global harm. The class of which I am part of, the global technological community, what apolitical for the longest time. We have this history of thinking: "We're going to make the world better."
DER SPIEGEL: What was your motivation when you entered the world of espionage?
Snowden: Entering the world of espionage sounds so grand. I just saw an enormous landscape of opportunities because of the government in its post-9/11 spending lightning what desperate to hire anybody who had high-level technical skills and a clearance. And I happened to have both. It was just about to be kidnapped and arrested in CIA headquarters, in charge of the Washington metropolitan area's network.
DER SPIEGEL: What it is so fascinating to be able to live in the world? Pretty much everybody's life via state-sponsored hacking?
Snowden: I have worked for the CIA, which is a human intelligence organization. But when I am back at the NSA headquarters, I am very much in the position of being in a state of emergency. And hey's like: "Bonus!" And he's like: "Bonus!"
DER SPIEGEL: What is a turning point for you?
Snowden: No, it happened over years. But I remember one specific moment: In my last position I was an infrastructure analyst. There are two forms of mass surveillance analysts at the NSA. There are persona analysts, all they do is read people's Facebook traffic, their chats, their messaging. Infrastructure analysts are often used for counterhacking. We're trying to see what others have done to us. Instead of tracking people, you're tracking devices.
DER SPIEGEL: Like a public computer?
Snowden: We would, for instance, track a computer in a library and turn on the camera. And it would end up being interesting later. We've got a ton of like pictures from Iraqi cybercafés. So somehow I came across a guy who was talking about an engineer somewhere in Southeast Asia and he was applying for a job in some university that was suspected of being a nuclear program or a cyberattack. I do not even remember because there's always some justification. And this man had his child on his lap, which was innocently banging on the keyboard.
DER SPIEGEL: That's when you had a prick of conscience?
Snowden: I knew that I was using tools of mass surveillance. But it had been all very abstract. And suddenly you actually see you through the screen. They do not know you, of course. But you realize that, as people are reading, we are reading them. And these systems had gotten this far without anyone knowing. It took forever for me to develop a sense of skepticism. But once it started bit by bit, it sort of continued to develop because you're more aware. You're looking for contradictions in what your employer tell you and what they actually do.
Daniel LEAL-OLIVAS / AFP
WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange
DER SPIEGEL: You became seriously ill and fell into depression. Have you ever had suicidal thoughts?
Snowden: No! This is important for the record. I am not now, nor have I ever been suicidal. I have a philosophical objection to the idea of suicide, and if I happen to fall out of a window.
THE SPIEGEL: When you started gathering the information which would later become known as the Snowden files, you were working in Hawaii for the "Office of Information Sharing." Sounds like a joke.
Snowden: I was the sole employee of this office. I ended up in that chair by accident. After my health scare, i was trying to take it easy, rebuild my relationship, repair all of that stuff. It gave me the mandate to have access to everything. And by sheer chance, I was collocated between a major Windows systems engineering team. They knew I was a system administrator and engineer. And they're like: Oh, you can help us out on the side. So I had just ridiculous access. It was incredible access. The NSA never realized how good I would be in that job of sharing information.
DER SPIEGEL: That was in an underground office, right?
Snowden: Yes, that's what in "the tunnel." There is this long road that cuts through the center of Oahu. And there's just this little thing going on to the left before a massive air base, which is a closed NSA facility. And from the parking lot you go through a long tunnel into a hill on which pineapple grow.
DER SPIEGEL: How did you smuggle the files out of this complex?
Snowden: There's a limit to what details I can go into it. Not that it really matters because I'm inside a courtroom, I'll spend the rest of my life in prison.
THE MIRROR: You write that sometimes smuggled SD memory cards inside a Rubik's cube.
Snowden: The most important part of the Rubik's cube is actually a concealment device, but a distraction device. I had to get things out of that building many times. Rubik's cube all the time. Rubik's cube all the time. Rubik's cube all the time. So I was the Rubik's cube guy. And when I came out of the tunnel with my contraband and saw one of the bored guards, I sometimes tossed the cube to him. He's like, "Oh, man, I had one of these things when I was a kid, but you know, I could never solve it. So I just pulled the stickers off." That was exactly what I had done - but for different reasons.
DER SPIEGEL: You even put the SD cards into your mouth.
Snowden: When you're doing this for the first time, you're just going down the hall and trying not to shake. And then, as you do it more times, you realize that it works. You realize that a metal detector does not detect SD card because it has less metal in it than the brackets on your jeans.
DER SPIEGEL: You've read indictments against former whistleblowers to learn from their mistakes. What did you discover?
Snowden: Where are the points of maximum danger were, where are they? I think it's going to be a trap, where they can just drop you off at the exit of the tunnel. Then one night, I'm actually driving out of the parking lot, and there's an NSA police vehicle behind me. So I'm just like: oh my god, drive carefully! But they were just leaving for the day and did not bother me.
DER SPIEGEL: How did you cope with the prospect of being treated like a traitor?
Snowden: You have to do that for the right reasons. It's not enough to believe in something. If you really want to change things, you have to take a risk.
DER SPIEGEL: What did you do on your last day in Hawaii before you fly to Hong Kong to meet with journalists?
Snowden: It's all about trying to make a mistake. Writing a note for Lindsay ...
DER SPIEGEL: ... who was your girlfriend at the time, and is now your wife. What kind of note?
Snowden: Just to say that because I could not tell what I was doing.
Cliff Owen / AP
Whistleblower Chelsea Manning
DER SPIEGEL: Why could not you?
Snowden: If you have read this, you have not been able to call the FBI, the government could say they were a member of a conspiracy according to US laws.
THE MIRROR: You never told Lindsay about your doubts and thoughts so you could understand a bit more about what's going on with you?
Snowden: I think she could see a change in my mood. But I had to be careful. If you love someone, you do not tell them things that could put them in prison.
DER SPIEGEL: Are you expecting to return to your home country at some day?
Snowden: It seems more and more likely that someday I want to be able to go back. You do not see the same allegations against me in 2019 that you did in 2013. All the claims about this tremendous harm to national security have fallen away. At the same time, the public benefits of what happened in 2013 have become more and more clear.
THE MIRROR: You describe your arrival in Moscow as a walk in the park. You say you refused to cooperate with the Russian intelligence agency FSB and they let you go. That sounds implausible to us.
Snowden: I think what the fact that the Russian government did not hang me upside down my ankles and beat me with a shock prod until secrets And they did not know what to do. They just did not know how to handle it. I think their answer is: "Let's wait and see."
DER SPIEGEL: Do you have Russian friends?
Snowden: I try to keep a distance between myself and Russian society, and this is completely intentional. I live my life with the English-speaking community. I'm the president of the Freedom of the Press Foundation. And, you know, I'm an indoor cat. It does not matter where I am - Moscow, Berlin, New York - as long as I have a look into it.
DER SPIEGEL: So there is no outside life?
Snowden: Of course there is. I'm meeting friends in town and I'm going out to eat for dinner. I'm walking around in the park with Lindsay. I ride the metro. I ride cabs. And I'm constantly condemning the Russian government's human rights record and their refusal of free and fair elections. But I am not taking selfies in front of the Kremlin, because the US Government would use that to attack me and discredit all I do.
DER SPIEGEL: The whistleblower for WikiLeaks, Chelsea Manning, has been caught in a long sentence and is back in prison right now. The founder of WikiLeaks, Julian Assange, what is imprisoned and is waiting for the US Are you next?
Snowden: I hope not. But look, I would like to live in a safe place, I would love to be in Hawaii. But what makes a life? It's not just who we think we are, it's the choices we make. If I can not return home to my country, I want to at least know that I made it better. And no matter what happens, that's something I can live with.
DER SPIEGEL: Western authorities accuse the Russian government on a regular basis of being one of the biggest disrupters in the digital world. Are they right?
Snowden: Russia is responsible for a lot of negative activity in the world, you can say that right and fairly. Did Russia interfere with elections? Almost certainly. But do the United States interfere in elections? Of course. They've been doing it for the past 50 years. Any country bigger than Iceland is going to interfere in every crucial election, and they're going to deny it every time, because this is what intelligence services do. What is it, why does it happen? What is the reason for the change?
DER SPIEGEL: Are you demanding the abolishment of intelligence services?
Snowden: I think one of the biggest problems in the world of intelligence is the refusal to separate action, propaganda and influence from intelligence. We need intelligence. Intelligence reduces the likelihood of war. The problem is that these services become an institution of their own that is not responsive to the desires of lawmakers, policymakers and the public, but in fact it is shaping and directing it. They will always say: Look, if you know this or that, people want the. But it's almost never true.
DER SPIEGEL: What's the solution?
Snowden: We have to stop bulk collection. If you're watching everyone in the world just in case they become dangerous, that's really problematic, because it changes the character of society.
DER SPIEGEL: Is the internet broken?
Snowden: Oh, no. It works all too well - but for the wrong people.
DER SPIEGEL: Is it possible to reinvent the internet, as internet pioneer Tim Berners-Lee has suggested?
Snowden: I respect Tim Berners-lee greatly. He is pushing for a re-decentralization of the internet. The idea is that we can make an internet that is more attentively owned without having to be incredibly difficult to maintain and administer.
DER SPIEGEL: How might that work?
Snowden: What do we have today? We have Facebook, Google, big datacenters all over the world, and these guys are remotely administering the computers. You send your requests out to Google. When you are looking for the right way, you ask Google Maps. Google processes the request and sends the results back to you. It's the same with voice recognition, Siri, Alexa and the rest. But today, phones are enormously more capable than they are used to be. Requests are increasingly solvable without relying on the cloud. And as that happens, we can start to move all these capabilities back to the edges because, after all, why does Google need to know where you're going? They do not need to know that for a maps application to function, even though they claim they do.
DER SPIEGEL: But people seem to be content with using Facebook, Google Maps and Siri?
Snowden: Look at the phone on this table. Could you tell me what it is doing while the screen is off?
DER SPIEGEL: Not really.
Snowden: Well, I can tell you with some authority that this phone is communicating hundreds or thousands of times every minute. It's contacting an ad network, analyzing your behavior, tracking your location and so on. The central problem is that it's happening invisibly. Let's assume you could just poke an icon and all the hidden activity would stop, would you do that?
DER SPIEGEL: Of course.
Snowden: But right now, that is not an option that is available to us. They just say: Scroll down this window, click "I agree," and you're life is getting better. And if there is no other challenge this, I'm going to do it my goddamn self, because the primary thing right now is the visibility of this predation.
DER SPIEGEL: What was the hardest moment for you in the last six years?
Snowden: Leaving Lindsay. Because that's the real crime that I'm guilty of. I am probably the worst boyfriend in the history of the United States.
DER SPIEGEL: As a former spy, you know how to disinform and to disrupt. Why should we believe anything you write in your book?
Snowden: You should not. It was a very difficult book to write, and I think I have been overly honest. In fact, the lesson you should take from it is: Question me, doubt me, be skeptical. But then be skeptical as well as the people who are actually in charge.
DER SPIEGEL: Mr. Snowden, thank you very much for this interview.
