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After a long struggle, there is finally a climate package. But are the decisions of the Federal Government far enough? Are you willing to pay the CO2 price, increase the commuter allowance and subsidize new heating systems in order to achieve the climate goals?
This is what we are talking about in this episode, among others with our colleague Sebastian Fischer, the head of the SPIEGEL Capital Office. He thinks there is "light and shadow" in the climate package. And Martin Knobbe, another SPIEGEL colleague, has watched for us, as Chancellor Angela Merkel arrived after the decision of the Climate Cabinet at the UNO in New York.
In addition, we have caught the opinion of our voice-heard listeners. They think: The climate package is going in the right direction, but not far enough.
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The complete transcript
[00:00:03] Yasemin Yüksel Welcome to Stimmenfang, the political podcast of SPIEGEL ONLINE. I am Yasemin Yüksel.
[00:00:09] Angela Merkel Yes ladies and gentlemen, I would like to welcome you to the press conference and ...
[00:00:14] Yasemin Yüksel After a good 19 hours of night sessions, the Chancellor said at the presentation of the climate package last week.
[00:00:20] Angela Merkel But I can tell you, it was intense, but constructive, and sometimes it was a pleasure to strive for the right path.
[00:00:28] Yasemin Yüksel So, after much negotiation, the federal government has taken the right path in a 23-page paper. "Cornerstones for the climate protection program 2030" is the first sentence in it: "The protection of the climate is a great, global challenge". You can not add much to that. For this voice-over episode, we first asked our podcast listeners to send us their opinion on this Climate Package as a voice message.
[00:00:55] Listener Marco Man reads this package, this climate package, and thinks, where was actually the last weeks or what did actually do? Do you call this fulfilling your task? Do you call that, the demands met? If that's the way of working, so I've already lost my job.
[00:01:12] Listener Lotta Yes, the climate protection package is again a step in the right direction, but in principle still far too few. Of course, the fact that the federal government wants to issue CO2 certificates instead of introducing a CO2 tax is a bit disappointing.
[00:01:26] Listener Sebastian We're definitely going in the right direction, but it's not nearly enough yet. We could do so much more.
[00:01:34] Yasemin Yüksel Marco, Lotta and Sebastian - the three had already participated in an episode in the summer. At that time, we wanted to know whether our listeners are actually prepared to do something about climate change in their own personal lives.
[00:01:47] Listener Marco As a rule, from Monday to Friday, we try to avoid meat and the like. Our toothbrushes are made of wood.
[00:01:55] Listener Lotta I have not had a big flight now.
[00:01:58] Listener Sebastian I generally do not even buy any vegetables that are somehow packed in plastic, because I do not see it at all.
[00:02:05] Yasemin Yüksel Without question - the three are already quite active and try to live more climate-neutral. So you can say, no wonder that such people the climate package does not go far enough. However, scientists and experts also sharply criticized the Federal Government immediately after the publication of the key issues paper.
[00:02:22] Ottmar Edenhofer, Institute for Climate Impact Research It is an uncoordinated jumble of funding programs that makes it unclear how much they actually contribute to reducing emissions. And we are far from getting the climate crisis under control.
[00:02:34] Yasemin Yüksel And because there is so much skepticism about this climate package, we want to take a closer look today. What actually happened behind the scenes in this night session at the Chancellery? Who prevailed in the climate package? Is the criticism justified? My interlocutor for all these questions today is Sebastian Fischer, one of the directors of the SPIEGEL Capital Office here in Berlin. Hello Sebastian, nice that you are there.
[00:02:55] Sebastian Fischer Hello Yasemin.
[00:02:56] Yasemin Yüksel Sebastian, can you describe in which setting this session ran from Thursday evening to Friday morning, Friday afternoon at all.
[00:03:06] Sebastian Fischer There were a total of about 19 hours. That's really crazy, even for experienced marathon participants such as the GroKo politicians. It started at 6:30 on Thursday night and ended just after noon on Friday noon. At least then came the breaking news, they had agreed on a climate package.
[00:03:30] Einspieler The Grand Coalition today presented a billion-dollar package of measures to get Germany on course for climate protection. Flights, train heating, gasoline - it is clear, it will hit us all. After a night of negotiation, the top representatives of the Union and the SPD announced the details in the afternoon.
[00:03:47] Sebastian Fischer And then it went on, then the so-called Climate Cabinet had to meet and so around half past three there was the press conference, where all this was presented.
[00:03:58] Angela Merkel Now you will ask, what have we done there the many hours and the many hours before. And here I can tell you that this is an example of what politics is - this also differentiates politics from science and from impatient young people -: politics is what is possible and the possibilities we have explored.
[00:04:22] Yasemin Yüksel What can you tell on the basis of the research of colleagues from the political department? How did these hours go behind the scenes?
[00:04:32] Sebastian Fischer In the beginning it was all about, let's say, not so difficult topics, so doing things like flights more expensive on the ticket tax and train travel on a reduced VAT rate cheaper. So those were the first hours after six o'clock. One waited during this time, so we are on Thursday, one waited during this time still on the finance minister Olaf Scholz, who is naturally not only the representative of the SPD, but also the master of the numbers and which of course urgently needed.
[00:05:02] Einspieler Federal Finance Minister Olaf Scholz came on late Thursday evening as the last participant to the meeting of the coalition committee in Berlin. At that time, the other politicians of the Grand Coalition had already spent several hours of deliberations.
[00:05:16] Sebastian Fischer And only then finally, so from midnight and then until the morning, around 6 o'clock, it was about this main problem: How can you price CO2, the carbon dioxide emissions? Is this a CO2 tax as the SPD has always required in advance or can you solve this through emissions trading as the Union would like?
[00:05:40] Yasemin Yüksel And now they have finally agreed that the CO2 emissions get a price, namely at the beginning very low, 10 euros per ton of CO2. And this price should then gradually increase until the year 2025 to 35 euros. And there it hails criticism, for example, by Professor Ottmar Edenhofer, which we have already heard in the beginning, who has also advised the federal government. He sat in the show a few days after the climate package was published by Anne Will and said:
[00:06:08] Ottmar Edenhofer, Institute for Climate Impact Research 10 euros, that is, a surcharge of three cents on diesel and gasoline. This hardly leads to behavioral changes.
[00:06:16] Yasemin Yüksel Who was the winner in the coalition? How did this low price come about?
[00:06:22] Sebastian Fischer It's actually a very low price, even if you compare it internationally. I think the Swedes are over 100 euros and we with 10 euros - that's very little.
[00:06:31] Yasemin Yüksel In Switzerland, the price per tonne of CO2 at the equivalent of about 90 euros is again for comparison.
[00:06:37] Sebastian Fischer How did that happen? Apparently, there were calculations in advance from the Federal Ministry of Economics, ie the department of Peter Altmaier. And there was so expected with 35 euros back and forth. But then came the objection of the Union and SPD side during these negotiations that it was a bit too high. One has to keep in mind: both people's parties naturally also have commuters, poorer population strata in view. Also, the concern that we get in Germany, a kind of yellow-west movement as in France. Of course, these concerns are very strong in the SPD and Union. And now the question is: who in the end has been enforced at this ten euros, at this really low price. Well, I think that was kind of - let's say - sub-coalition between SPD and CSU. The SPD has made it clear that these 35 euros are too high. I think it was going towards 20 euros - that's what the participant told us. Even the Chancellor seemed to agree with these 20 euros and then said from the year 2022. And then the CSU apparently made the proposal, well, we can start in 2021. Let's start with 10 euros and then go 2022 to 20 euros. There was a long struggle until six o'clock in the morning. And then, as our sources told us, acting SPD chairman Malu Dreyer once again said that 20 euros was better. But that was then checked off relatively quickly, and the Chancellor must have said then that it could not be mediated on the Union side. One would now just go with these ten euros at the start. But of course it must have been clear to all involved at this time. That's pretty low with 10 euros.
[00:08:34] Yasemin Yüksel What would you say overall, what has come out now? This package - after 19 hours and of course much, much more hours of preparation days - is that a big hit, a big botch, something in between-how'd you put it?
[00:08:46] Sebastian Fischer Well, I think there is already light and shadow. One thing that should not be underestimated is that we have set binding goals for the first time here; that the government sets itself binding targets that should be respected, and not just declarations of intent. It's sort of a monitoring, so each department in this government must always prove that it meets the goals or not. That is an absolute positive point, which one has to say.
[00:09:13] Yasemin Yüksel That's right. However, I have already asked myself, well, now quite honestly - should not that be standard anyway with every measure that the Federal Government undertakes?
[00:09:22] Sebastian Fischer Yes, you can say that. But as I said - now that's verifiable. Every year you can say that this or that resort has not reached it. As someone like the Minister of Transport Andreas Scheuer, who of course has a department where you have a lot of CO2 emissions, who will have to fight quite a bit to achieve these goals. And if he does not achieve that, which some assume, there will be a lot to do. Now you can ask, ok, where are the sanctions? The negotiators, I think, have also asked. It does not really exist now - it's not like the minister will be replaced or something like that. But, I think the debate in the Chancellor's Office was then that the social pressure will be so high that you also have to draw consequences, so that then there also saves more accordingly.
[00:10:07] Yasemin Yüksel I found it interesting at this press conference, which took place on Friday afternoon, when the Chancellor said the following:
[00:10:15] Angela Merkel I also understand those who say: Yeah, who in the world am I supposed to believe that this will really help you the next time? And we do not really believe that because you told us that by 2020.
[00:10:28] Yasemin Yüksel For the keyword 2020: You have to remind yourself - to renounce the self-proclaimed climate protection goals by 2020 to 40 percent of CO2 emissions, which will miss the federal government, they will not succeed ,
[00:10:43] Sebastian Fischer That is really a big problem, I believe, that the federal government or that Germany does not manage to achieve these goals and that is also a credibility problem. And that is also the difficulty of this climate package, that of course in the very concrete measures - so we have already talked about the price of carbon - in this very concrete measure, say all the experts, just too little with 10 €. I would see that under the shade of this climate package. This really far too low CO2 price, because more should have happened. Three cents per liter of fuel is not the world now. And a social balance could certainly have done differently.
[00:11:25] Yasemin Yüksel Let's stay with these three cents a liter more for gas. One of our listeners, who is also called Sebastian by the way and who also sent us a voice mail for this episode, will be concerned. He drives to work every day by car, so he is a commuter and this additional cost for fuel, he can fortunately even get over it, but what annoys him is this:
[00:11:47] Listener Sebastian For me that means effectively that I - if I remember that correctly - from the year 2021 have to pay more money for gasoline, where I ask myself on the one hand, why only from 2021? That does not open to me at all. Why so late? On the other hand, of course, it means I have to pocket more and get it back for the helm. This raises the question for me: What is this supposed to do? What good is that for the climate? Does that really stop me from driving more by car?
[00:12:25] Yasemin Yüksel That is, what he is referring to here is one of the much discussed further measures from the climate package, namely that the commuter allowance will be increased by five cents per kilometer from 2021. And that in turn annoys another listener, Marco, who also lives in Bavaria.
[00:12:43] Listener Marco A commuter rate, which applies to both motorists and train travelers - and in the end to the same extent - where exactly creates the incentive that I say as a car driver, okay, that's for me Reason enough to switch to the train? Spoiler: zero. It creates no incentive at all. It is not an incentive a commuter tax, yes it is nice that it should be a relief. But the commuter commute does not help you change from the car to the train if both are treated equally or treated identically the same when I make my tax at the end of the year. I would be interested to know how many people change from car to train because of a commuter tax increase. I'm assuming that it will stay in the manageable area. And for manageability we no longer have the leeway, I firmly believe.
[00:13:42] Yasemin Yüksel Sebastian, this point has been criticized many times. How nonsensical is this increase in the commuter allowance in your opinion? One does not say, for example, commuter allowance for explicit train driving increases even more than for driving. It is treated the same.
[00:13:59] Sebastian Fischer I do not think it's entirely absurd, because the increase in the commuter tax allowance especially affects people who live in rural areas and travel longer distances back to work. And ultimately, it depends on how the traffic mix of the future looks like. And I think we should already distinguish between city and country. It does not help the people in the countryside who commute to work to make life so difficult that they can not use this car anymore. What else do you want to do? How should it go? There will not be public transport everywhere. The big city needs other solutions than the middle city, as the small city, as the country. I think that one can argue that it makes sense to enable commuters to continue to travel this route with their car tax-deductible. At the same time - and of course that is missing in this climate package and that is missing especially in the local politics of these big German cities like Berlin, Hamburg, Cologne Frankfurt, Munich - why are people still driving to work every day in the city? Why is that still?
[00:15:10] Yasemin Yüksel I would say because, among other things, public transport often leaves much to be desired. Incidentally, this is also a point that our listener Sebastian has thematized:
[00:15:19] Listener Sebastian I am 27 years old and certainly not one who would not like to use public transport, but Munich, as far as public transport is concerned, is close to collapse every day. Anyone who has been on the road in Munich knows exactly how it works. That the tracks are totally overcrowded, that they are totally unpunctual, that this does not work at all. I live at one of the problem areas in the whole of Munich, that is the S1. I do not even have to go to Munich. I even go a little further out to get to work. That means I live on the edge, I do not work in the urban area - nevertheless my travel time would triple from door to door to work. I drive by car for 15 minutes. I would need 45 minutes with the public.
[00:16:11] Yasemin Yüksel I believe the listener has a point because the whole affair reveals that, for example, investment in public transport has been neglected in recent years.
[00:16:21] Sebastian Fischer Sure, but it's not just public transport, but in such big cities, it's not so expensive to take concrete measures that will cause traffic to change. For example, in a city like Berlin, which is a very well-developed city, if you clearly give priority to cycling and pedestrian traffic in such a city, which is not the case now, then you would completely Many people are also moving, for example, to change the bike. It's not all about buses, S-Bahn, U-Bahn. But that's really about the decision of many people, well, if I ride a bicycle in a city like Berlin, then I am currently in a relatively big risk. It is a very cramped space for many cyclists. While you have a lot of room on the other side for a lot of very big cars. Of course, the federal government can not change that in its climate package. But of course that's a process that needs to get going at the local level as well as people's thinking, I think. It does not matter how the people in the countryside drive their cars.
[00:17:29] Yasemin Yüksel Let's finish this difficult and important topic of transport change at this point and let's look again at the reaction after this Friday after the climate package was published. I remember, our colleague Benjamin Bidder from the political department wrote a comment on Friday, I quote: "From each section you can read the naked fear of the voters and a German yellow-west movement." The result is a largely useless measures inferno ". Sebastian exaggerates the colleague or do you share his assessment there?
[00:18:00] Sebastian Fischer Ne, I would say he exaggerates. But that's good, too, because it's a commentary and so Benjamin covers a very broad spectrum, which we also have in the editorial department. I also wrote a comment that day. He was just not so critical of the package of measures, as I said, light and shadow. For me, it is important that something happens, that it is verifiable and that there is the possibility to follow up. Because politics is not that you say: We have decided that now and that is now the same thing in the next ten years. But this is now a push, so it starts now and then you will see how the future political majorities are, for example, as are the international developments. For example, this package must be in parts by the Federal Council. In the Bundesrat, the grand coalition relies on the Greens. I can well imagine that the Greens, of course, will try to influence and negotiate one or the other. It may even be that at the end there is not the 10 Euro CO2 price as an entry, but that in some way a little bit more.
[00:19:03] Yasemin Yüksel Sebastian, the Chancellor was then, a few days after this memorable, long marathon meeting in Berlin, in New York at the United Nations at the local climate summit and gave a short speech.
[00:19:16] Angela Merkel There is no doubt that global warming is essentially human-made climate change. And that's why we have to follow the advice of science. It is a global challenge that can only be tackled together. Because we all have only one earth.
[00:19:38] Yasemin Yüksel Our fellow colleague Martin Knobbe here from the capital office has also been in New York and has been watching Merkel in this speech. And he then sent us a short WhatsApp message to describe a bit of his impressions of how the Chancellor presented herself. Let's listen.
[00:19:56] Martin Knobbe It was a rather objective speech. So Merkel again presented what the Climate Cabinet had decided on Friday; But promised after all before the assembled world press and the delegates of the countries, that Germany wants to reduce its CO2 emissions by 2030 by 55 percent. Her speech was, as I said, sober and matter-of-fact as, of course, Merkel's style is, but this time it was particularly noticeable because only a few minutes before Chancellor Greta Thunberg spoke on a podium with two or three other climate activists.
[00:20:46] Greta Thunberg (in English) I should not be here. I should be back to school on the other side of the ocean. And yet you are looking for all hope among us young people. How dare you?
[00:20:48] Martin Knobbe Thunberg was very emotional, she clenched her fists and called on the assembled delegates and leaders to finally do something. They will not let her get away, said Thunberg.
[00:21:12] Greta Thunberg (in English) For more than 30 years, science has clearly stated this. How dare you look further and claim that you are doing enough if the necessary policies and solutions are still not in sight.
[00:21:18] Martin Knobbe And so, of course, the Chancellor's contribution to the emotionality fell off a bit.
[00:21:24] Yasemin Yüksel Sebastian, yes, that's how Martin described it to us. How would you assess how credible Merkel is as a pioneer in terms of climate protection, a representative of a country that at least by itself - I would say - likes to claim it was a pioneer in climate protection - how credible could it be in New York present yourself?
[00:21:46] Sebastian Fischer Well, at the moment we are not really pioneers. We have heard that other European countries are continuing to take action against man-made climate change. And at the same time, we are simply one of the biggest polluters. I think the Chancellor said in New York too:
[00:22:03] Angela Merkel Germany has one percent of the world's population and two percent of global emissions. If everyone acted like Germany, emissions would double worldwide. Everyone knows what that means.
[00:22:19] Sebastian Fischer That shows a lot, because of course we always like to pat ourselves on the back as Germans. We separate the garbage so neatly and we are anyway eco, here and there. Unfortunately that's not true. And that's why we have to be as a citizen even a bit to pick up the nose and there as well mittun than in the past. I believe that Merkel continues to have a standing international standing in this climate community and also among the heads of state, so if it announces measures there for Germany, then that has a meaning, because Germany is also an example of an industrialized country, a highly developed industrialized country can, which implements just such measures. I mean we get out of nuclear energy. We get out of coal energy. And of course, if we prove that it works, that is an absolute positive example of what school can do. Of course you only have to do what you proclaim internationally, just as you can celebrate internationally, and of course you have to implement it domestically. And there was just this government or the Chancellor with different governments in recent years just not front.
[00:23:36] Yasemin Yüksel Sebastian, let's try to look a little bit into the future at the end. We started, we described how this marathon session was on Thursday night, Thursday night, Friday morning, which is in the package we have partially addressed what is missing. You have expressed that - light and shadow. How should it continue now?
[00:23:55] Sebastian Fischer I think it is very important that we understand that politics is not just the art of the possible, but also the art of communication. Angela Merkel must now do what she has often done more badly than right in her chancellery, she has to provide a narrative to the people, provide an explanation why all this is necessary, where this leads to take also the population. You just do not take the people with you by saying that you get compensation A, B and C here, and see. That's all relatively technical. But you also take people along by explaining to them why you are doing this policy, why you believe that it makes sense, and so they remain believable. This is a very, very, very important point, which has always been neglected in various topics in this government constellation.
[00:24:47] Yasemin Yüksel Thank you for your assessments today, Sebastian. Thank you very much.
[00:24:52] Sebastian Fischer With pleasure.
[00:24:53] Yasemin Yüksel That was votes, the policy podcast of SPIEGEL ONLINE. The next episode will be available this Thursday on SPIEGEL ONLINE, Spotify and in all major podcast apps. If you have any feedback on this episode - and we have definitely discussed topics today that can be of the most diverse opinion - from traffic change to climate change - feel free to send us an email to stimmfang@spiegel.de or use our voicemail mailbox below 040 380 80 400. You can also send us a WhatsApp message to the same number: 040 380 80 400. This episode was produced by Matthias Kirsch and myself, Yasemin Yüksel. Thanks for the support to Sebastian Fischer, Johannes Kückens, Wiebke Rasmussen, Charlotte Schönberger and Matthias Streitz. The voice-casting music comes from Davide Rosso.
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