Stimmenfang # 115 - Numbers and feelings: How united is Germany really?
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6500 euros gross - a worker in the West earns that much more than an employee in the East on average for the year. Based on the economic figures, it is often illustrated how great the differences between East and West Germany still are 30 years after the fall of the Wall. But tell the statistics the whole story?
That's why the new podcast episode is all about people's feelings. Because the perception of East and West Germans deviates in part strongly from the reality, tells us for example Paul Zernitz of the online polling institute Civey. We also speak with our colleague Alfred Weinzierl , who co-designed the SPIEGEL special issue on the occasion of the 30th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall.
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[00:00:02] Matthias Kirsch Welcome to Stimmenfang, the political podcast of SPIEGEL ONLINE. I am Matthias Kirsch.
[00:00:11] Matthias Kirsch This fall marks the thirtieth anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall and the day of German unification is celebrated these days. As a reminder of how two countries became one. But how united are East and West Germany? Where do the differences come from and what can be done to counter these differences? That's what this episode is about. On the one hand, there are the numbers, the hard facts, which prove that the differences between East and West Germany still exist; that somehow they are constantly there.
[00:00:39] Einspieler 30 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, the economic differences between East and West Germany are still evident. This emerges from the report on the state of German unity, which the Eastern Commissioner Hirte presented today in the Cabinet.
[00:00:53] Matthias Kirsch And on the other hand, there is also the emotional level and that is often much more complicated and contradictory. For example, how do the people in East Germany or in West Germany actually perceive German unity? For this episode, I will meet a pollster who tries to make these feelings palpable. But first I'm sitting here in the studio with my colleague Alfred Weinzierl, who was instrumental in the creation of the current SPIEGEL SPEZIAL issue about the 30 years since the fall of the Berlin Wall. Hello Alfred.
[00:01:22] Alfred Weinzierl Hello.
[00:01:23] Matthias Kirsch Alfred, Last week the Federal Government presented its annual report on German unity. In the debate in the Bundestag Christian Hirte said - this is the representative of the Federal Government for the new states:
[00:01:35] Christian Hirte Ladies and gentlemen, the following union is today a hard-earned, but also lived reality. And just as someone who has spent a large part of his childhood on the farm of his grandparents 50 meters in front of the 500-meter fence, I say: The Peaceful Revolution and German unity are a godsend of German history.
[00:01:58] Matthias Kirsch That sounds like a united Germany in all respects. What do you think about that?
[00:02:05] Alfred Weinzierl Of course I see a united Germany. When I look at how people live in Hamburg, who were born in Schwerin, in Leipzig, in Frankfurt / Oder and vice versa, when you travel to the East there are of course people who have gone over after the turn and are stuck and say : I found a new home in Cottbus or in Dresden or wherever. In that sense, we are already a united Germany. But on the other side there is already the dividing, the still dividing. And then you have to dig a bit deeper, take a closer look and then you realize that you can not say that the people in South Brandenburg feel the same way, live the same way, think the same as those in Schleswig-Holstein or in Oldenburg.
[00:03:00] Matthias Kirsch There are, as you say, these differences and quite often they are represented by numbers. The Federal Statistical Office, for example, says that an employee in the East earns on average about 6,500 euros less than a worker in the west every year. Where do these differences come from?
[00:03:18] Alfred Weinzierl These are certainly first and foremost because the industries that pay very well are predominantly in the West. These statistics are correct, if you see East Germany or the new federal states as a whole, the votes also, if you go to the periphery of the cities. Of course, this is not true, if you look at the bacon belt of Berlin or if you look at the cities of Dresden or Leipzig, because there are very good salaries paid, because there have settled for example companies such as BMW and of course by their standards then Wages are paid. That is, it is not a consistent picture. It is true, however, that there are not so many well-paid jobs in rural areas, which in general just pushes the statistics down.
[00:04:18] Matthias Kirsch And there you have to remember, that in fact the east is in a large part a rural area. Let's stay with the numbers again. In its last report on unity, the federal government also stated that economic, social and societal factors were far more advanced than one thought 30 years ago that one would be in 2019.
[00:04:38] Christian Shepherd In the meantime we have done a lot to reduce the difference between East and West. Also and currently we have both absolutely. As well as relative to the west rising wages salaries and pensions. In the East, thanks to the economic development and the higher weighting of pensions, we have the lowest poverty in the country today.
[00:04:57] Matthias Kirsch Nevertheless, the last year showed - for example, with the riots in Chemnitz - there are always large walls in mind and quite a few people in East Germany have the feeling that they are still German second class are. Why does this wall persist in the mind?
[00:05:16] Alfred Weinzierl For example, because the pensioners are not yet at the same level. And that, of course, is a very simple story. All I have to do is look and realize: Aha, as a retiree with a comparable employment history, I get so much less in East Germany. It's not easy to explain that to someone after 30 years. It is true that the cost of living in the East are partly cheaper due to the lower rents, but everything else concerning normal consumption - if I buy a used car, it is just as expensive there as in Worms or in Lübeck. And so I can understand that people say that if I do not get the same for my life performance here as in the West then I'm angry. I can understand similar things when it comes to infrastructure supply.
[00:06:16] Matthias Kirsch There are still corners in East Germany, where there are huge dead spots, where no really good internet is available or no public transport.
[00:06:24] Alfred Weinzierl And so there are a lot of areas in life, where in the East it is not the way you might have imagined from the West, that it will happen soon in the East. And yet people, I believe, do not suspect - who are affected - that you have regions in the West where conditions are just as bad.
[00:06:51] Matthias Kirsch This is the question of perception and reality. This felt truth was also in my conversation with the pollster Paul Zernitz. He tries to make this emotional level, which still exists next to the number level, tangible on the basis of numbers. Listen to what the pollster Paul Zernitz told me.
[00:07:13] Matthias Kirsch Hello Paul.
[00:07:13] Paul Zernitz Hello, I greet you.
[00:07:15] Matthias Kirsch When we talk about the differences between East and West, we also talk about the economic figures. The salaries are lower in the East the gross domestic product is lower, the pensions are still not balanced - 30 years after the turn not. You have also raised numbers on the economy, how people judge the economic differences between East and West since the turn. How did the East Germans answer that?
[00:07:43] Paul Zernitz Almost 50 percent of East Germans say that the differences between East and West have diminished economically since the fall of the Wall. At the same time, more than a third say that the economic differences have even increased since the fall of the Wall. That's just 14 percent in the West.
[00:08:01] Matthias Kirsch And in fact it's just that the differences have simply become much smaller. It's quite impressive that so many people in the East still believe that the differences have actually increased.
[00:08:13] Paul Zernitz That's the difference between economic statistics and people's perceptions, which is often very different.
[00:08:20] Also, the perception of the state of democracy is something that can not always be proven very well with numbers. In the debate in the Bundestag last week, for example, Christian Hirte, the Federal Government Commissioner for the New Länder, said:
[00:08:34] Christian Hirte The dissatisfaction in some regions in the new Länder is palpable, especially when it comes to political issues or to trust in politics, in social, in state institutions.
[00:08:44] Matthias Kirsch You have also raised numbers to the satisfaction of people with democracy. What can you say? Are the West Germans happier with democracy than the East Germans?
[00:08:55] Paul Zernitz Overall, around half of Germans are dissatisfied with the functioning of democracy in Germany. In East Germany, however, it is more than half, in West Germany is less than half.
[00:09:07] Matthias Kirsch So here you can tell by the fact that there are more West Germans than East Germans - this pushes the whole statistic into positives.
[00:09:15] Exactly.
[00:09:16] Matthias Kirsch Just to make it clear: Overall, less than half of East Germans are satisfied with German democracy.
[00:09:23] Paul Zernitz Right.
[00:09:24] Matthias Kirsch In the same direction, it is also about whether one feels safe in a country. For example, if you feel confident to say your own opinion. Also there you have collected numbers. Do East and West Germans have a similar feeling regarding freedom of expression? For example, would the East Germans say they feel free to say their own opinion?
[00:09:46] Paul Zernitz There are some differences between East and West. Overall, a majority of Germans still say that they can express their opinions freely. In East Germany, however, we actually have 45 percent of respondents the feeling that they can not express their opinion freely. That's a much higher value than in the West. That's only 36 percent.
[00:10:06] Matthias Kirsch Ok, that's a not insignificant difference. Now, looking at the numbers that Civey has collected, about which you have told us, all in all, then you realize that there is very little unity. So in one question, there was already the consensus that Germany has benefited, but otherwise you had the feeling that East Germans always see themselves as a bit of a loser. One might think that they believe that because they are somehow dissatisfied overall. You have also collected data on the mentality of the people. What can you tell there?
[00:10:38] Paul Zernitz Interestingly, there are hardly any differences here. When you ask people in East or West how satisfied they are with their lives, very, very similar, clearly positive answers come out. If you ask them how pessimistic or optimistic they look to the future, they will come out similarly. It does not seem to be a mentality thing, the differences between East and West, but really dependent on politics economy and society.
[00:11:05] Matthias Kirsch So, there seems to be some difference between East Germans and West Germans, but they are definitely not due to the mentality or attitude and contentment with their lives.
[00:11:16] Paul Zernitz Basically rather no.
[00:11:19] Matthias Kirsch Ok, thank you Paul.
[00:11:21] Alfred, the findings of which Paul Zernitz has told us here, already make it clear that East Germans and West Germans are not in agreement on many issues. Together with our colleague Konstantin von Hammerstein, you have designed the current SPIEGEL SPECIAL booklet on the occasion of the 30th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall. This issue has given you the following subtitle: Why it's so hard for us to become a people. Did you answer that question?
[00:11:48] Alfred Weinzierl Well, of course, there is no answer to that. They do not exist, I think. But we have listed in some stories the aspects that play a role in agreeing. An example: The Alexander Osang grew up in the GDR, has now come to the mirror in the late 90s and has worked out in his article that he was in the principle of unity from the day, always demanded to become like a West German. Why a - he called that - rehabilitation program. And that was the wrong approach of West Germans to believe that we must now turn the East Germans into West Germans. Of course, they have their own character, their own history and, ultimately, their own claims. And if these two subpopulations, I call this now, approach each other with the imprint, then they have different stories and can not expect each other to mendel or fully assimilate.
[00:13:04] Matthias Kirsch For the SPIEGEL SPEZIAL issue you also had a conversation with the poet and songwriter Wolf Biermann. Biermann moved to the GDR in the 1950s and twenty years later the GDR expatriated him. Can someone like Biermann, who has lived on both sides, explain why it is so difficult with unity?
[00:13:26] Alfred Weinzierl Biermann obviously has a very special position. He says the West, of course, has taken or incorporated the GDR, as it were, and has done so for its own reasons, not now to make all GDR people happy. The West Germans should not expect too much thanks from the East Germans.
[00:13:51] Matthias Kirsch How does Biermann feel about this deeper split, which now seems to be opening up again? So the deeper division, when it comes to the fact that the East Germans are now politically attracted to a rather right-wing extremist party, he can not understand in principle. He considers this stupid and excessive and inappropriate behavior. He can understand that the East Germans practice criticism and how they have been dealt with over the past 30 years.
[00:14:30] Matthias Kirsch What kind of experiences did you have when you talked to East Germans? You were there a few weeks ago to research in Brandenburg before the state elections there. How did you perceive the people there? Did you feel like living in a united country?
[00:14:45] Alfred Weinzierl I think people are a bit busy with themselves. Those who stayed there wondering: Did I do something wrong or was it right? Why is my neighbor or the daughter of my neighbor, why did she go to Munich and is now great in the IT industry and maybe deserves - I do not know - 8,000 euros a month or something. Could my son have done that too? They are already thinking about that. And they also register that people, when they come back to their homeland, are different, behave differently, dress differently, speak differently, and in some cases may be a bit insensitive: What are you still doing here? And why did you stay here? And so on. And then, of course, they also feel like they're being reset and maybe even - you just mentioned that, the second-class term - maybe they're also struggling with themselves and their biography not to have taken this step. I have met others, who are totally satisfied with what they have made of their homeland. They have craft shops built, they have their customers, they have their livelihoods, they do not want to go to the West.
[00:16:09] Matthias Kirsch You mentioned it: These differences between the people who go away and those who come back. How was your impression? Who hit harder - the ones who did not go away or those who came back?
[00:16:23] Alfred Weinzierl I think those who come back now are doing it with full intention and as a life plan. For some years now, we have a population migration that tends to go from west to east. In terms of numbers, this is not that bad, but families are always coming back to their homeland. Others see that there are new opportunities in the East. So chances, by that I actually mean to build a new existence, because the East is not so desolate as he may have been in the late nineties in some corners. And there is a phenomenon that is more of a demographic. Namely that was built in the 90s yes quite a lot of administration and these people who got there then these jobs in the 90's in the administration or in companies, which are now on the way to retirement. That means there's a generation change now, and that means that interesting, secure, well-paid jobs, for example in public administration, are now free. And of course I can well imagine that someone says, man, if there is a possibility to build something new, then my home is closer than my exile, in which I went there.
[00:17:55] Matthias Kirsch But point change of generation: The East is also considered altogether older - partly because just so many especially young people have left after the turn. What influence does the age problem actually have?
[00:18:10] Alfred Weinzierl This is already a problem and it will be a much bigger problem. In some regions there is an aging of the population. There are places or cities, there are four deaths a birth. And, of course, that has an impact on public life, of course. And in truth there is no solution, but through this development you have to go through. That will keep us busy for fifteen years.
[00:18:43] Matthias Kirsch Let's get back to our initial question: How united is Germany? We talked about the numbers on the one hand and the feelings on the other. What would you say, what does it take for Germany to finally say that this wall has disappeared from its heads?
[00:19:00] Alfred Weinzierl Back then, 30 years ago, I thought that it took a generation to find a natural way of dealing with each other. At the time, I underestimated that one can inherit imprints and offenses. I think we have to - let's call it - overcome the objective injustices and for me the pension issue is an important point. And in these social issues, there is certainly not just the pension, there are a few other aspects. But that would be a symbol in the end. That will be expensive. But that's also something to say then: Ok, we got that now and we're going to do it now. And we do not want to make a difference anymore. At the moment there is him.
[00:19:51] Matthias Kirsch Right now the first generation that has already been born in unified Germany is having children. On your part, then is it with the coinage with the inheritance over?
[00:20:03] Alfred Weinzierl Let me hope that someday you will not think about East or West Germany, how you think about it, if you're a hamburger, if you live in Hamburg for 30 years, like I.
[00:20:15] Matthias Kirsch Thank you Alfred, that you took your time.
[00:20:22] Alfred Weinzierl Thank you too.
[00:20:22] Matthias Kirsch That was votes, the policy podcast of SPIEGEL ONLINE. The next episode of Stimmenfang you will hear next Thursday on SPIEGEL ONLINE, Spotify and in all major podcast apps. If you want to send us feedback, please send us an email to voicenfang@spiegel.de or use our voice mailbox on 040 380 80 400. You can also send us a WhatsApp number to the same number, ie 040 380 80 400. Send Message. This episode was produced by Yasmin Yüksel and me, Matthias Kirsch. Thanks for the support to Sebastian Fischer, Johannes Kückens, Wiebke Rasmussen and Matthias Streitz. The voice-casting music comes from Davide Russo.
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