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Podcast "Voices": All against Höcke? What is at stake in the state election in Thuringia

2019-10-17T15:35:25.541Z


Minority government or at least a Zimbabwe coalition - that is black-red-yellow-green: after the state election Thuringia may only be able to govern if all parties unite against the AfD.



Voice # 117 - Thuringia Election: Who can govern at all? And what is the AfD doing?

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With the election in Thuringia the East German election autumn comes to an end. In Saxony and Brandenburg, the AfD was already the second strongest force - in Thuringia as well? The national federation around Björn Höcke is considered extreme right, stands nevertheless in the surveys clearly over 20 per cent.

Which AfD starts in Thuringia and how they used the assassination last week in Halle for themselves, that's what this episode is about. Ann-Katrin Müller, who writes for the Spiegel about the AfD, explains the peculiarities of the Thuringian AfD state association.

Then we talk to Timo Lehmann, SPIEGEL editor in Leipzig. He makes it clear that the strength of the right-wing populists makes the formation of a government in Erfurt so difficult, which coalitions are still possible and why the current Prime Minister Bodo Ramelow could remain in power without a majority.

The podcast as a text to read

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The complete transcript

[00:00:02] Matthias Kirsch Welcome to Stimmenfang, the political podcast from SPIEGEL. I am Matthias Kirsch. In Thuringia, the state election is imminent. It is the end of a long election autumn in East Germany. And as in Saxony and Brandenburg is starting to find a governing coalition, which should be difficult. And that is mainly due to the strong AfD.

[00:00:25] Björn Höcke (AfD) We as AfD Thüringen start a deportation offensive in 2020 if we are in government responsibility.

[00:00:34] Matthias Kirsch What does an election success of the AfD mean to Björn Höcke in Thuringia? What role does the attack in Halle play in the AfD election campaign? And what is generally at stake in this state election? I talk about it first with Ann-Katrin Müller, who writes for the Spiegel about the AfD. Later we will take a closer look at the state of Thuringia - for this I call Timo Lehmann, the Spiegel editor in Leipzig.

[00:00:57] First and foremost, I'd like to introduce you to SPIEGEL's latest podcast: Living in Smarter, Lenne Kaffka visits people every week who want to improve their lives through small changes. In the current episode, for example, mindfulness coach Jacomo introduces routines of how to survive a stressful day at the office. For example, he also answers the question of how to meditate while walking. You can subscribe to and listen to smarter live on all major podcast platforms.

[00:01:27] And back to the state election in Thuringia. Now in my studio is Ann-Katrin Müller, who writes about the AfD at SPIEGEL. Hello Ann-Katrin.

[00:01:34] Ann-Katrin Müller Hello.

[00:01:36] Matthias Kirsch Let's talk about the AfD in Thuringia in general. That differs a bit from the AfD national associations in other parts of Germany. What is special about the Thuringian national association of the AfD?

[00:01:50] Ann-Katrin Müller In Thuringia sits Björn Höcke, who is the head of the district and also the head of the parliament. And he is the figurehead of the "wing". This "wing", as they call themselves, is the nationalist national platform within the AfD, which for years has been trying to make the AfD more right-wing and more national and thus also very successful.

[00:02:11] Matthias Kirsch Would you say, this name for the AfD "right-wing populist", which is used in the whole German context AfD - is that still appropriate for the Thuringian state association? Or do you have to use a different term?

[00:02:25] Ann-Katrin Müller I would use a stronger term. So right-wing populist is - especially as far as the Thuringian - actually too weak and also as far as the "wing". Actually, you have to say that extremely right. The protection of the constitution also refers again and again to Björn Höcke and Andreas Kalbitz, that is the Brandenburger Landeschef, who is very close with Mr. Höcke. As is also repeatedly referred to the speeches of Mr. Höcke in the constitution protection report, when it comes to the AfD.

[00:02:50] Björn Höcke ( AFD ) The Germans are the only people in the world who have planted a monument of shame in the heart of their capital.

[00:03:00] Ann-Katrin Müller Well, that's a special position in the party.

[00:03:03] Matthias Kirsch Let's take a look at this person Björn Höcke. What role does Björn Höcke play in this Thuringian state association? Or what role does he generally take in this "wing"?

[00:03:15] Ann-Katrin Müller In Thuringia, I think there are some critics. But he is the most famous politician with - the entire AfD, you have to say. So, apart from Gauland, I think he's the character you know, even if you're not explicitly involved with the party like me or even journalists. And Björn Höcke is the figurehead, that's just what I called it, because he is the one who stands in front of all the other "wingers", who likes to choose the great performance and who then gets very strong with this right thought also connects. To whom one reproaches again and again that he leans his language on former National Socialists and so on. And there are also critics in the party. There was also an appeal from the approximately 100 more moderate - in quotation marks - AfDlern who have just tried to say: "The AfD is not a Björn Höcke party", because it was a bit too colorful, as this person cult, he strongly driven, now, to the beginning of provincial election campaigns in the east. But in terms of content, there is very little criticism of Björn Höcke in the party. His power - with it the power of the "wing" - has become very strong.

[00:04:27] Matthias Kirsch Now that you mention that: Our colleague Timo Lehmann, whom we will hear later, and Melanie Amann, the office manager of SPIEGEL here in Berlin, who wrote an article a few weeks ago, in which they say: Björn Höcke is actually more a mascot than a power factor. Do you see it that way?

[00:04:43] Ann-Katrin Müller Björn Höcke is as good as this position and the "wing" powerful, but not because he is now the very good networker. In the background for him Andreas Kalbitz, who organizes all these things for the "wing", while Björn Höcke arrives, delivers his speech and then drives straight back.

[00:05:03] Matthias Kirsch If we refer this now to Thuringia and the provincial election campaign in Thuringia, will there be a more moderate AfD apart from this movement of the "wing" in Thuringia?

[00:05:15] Ann-Katrin Müller Clear. So in comparison to the ones you just mentioned, there are definitely more moderate ones. The interesting thing is that so to speak the loud resistance against this "wing" and against Höcke and Kalbitz has diminished more and more. There was just this little uprising again against the cult of personality, but no longer against the contents, no longer against the whole concepts that are used, no longer against this orientation in this strong nationalist.

[00:05:42] Matthias Kirsch You also mentioned that earlier, the language used by Björn Höcke. There was a very specific moment in this state election campaign when Björn Höcke from ZDF was directly interviewed for the program Berlin.

[00:05:55] Björn Höcke (AfD) Take care, we finish the interview. Only then is it clear that we do not know what's coming. Then it is clear that there will be no interview with me for you.

[00:06:04] Berlin directly Is that a threat?

[00:06:05] Björn Höcke (AfD) No, that's just a statement because I'm just human too. I am only human, do you understand?

[00:06:09] Berlin direct And what could come when you say ...

[00:06:14] Björn Höcke (AfD) Maybe I'll be an interesting personal ... political person in this country, could it be.

[00:06:17] Matthias Kirsch Such scandals do they harm the AfD in Thuringia or do you rather help them?

[00:06:23] Ann-Katrin Müller That's a very good question that I do not believe has been proven by data. My assessment would be that - that is, from the conversations that I have had locally with AfD, voters or AfD local politicians - it probably helps in a way, at least for all those who were already the AfD already accessible. The feel rather confirmed, in this "we are somehow pursued by the media, we are somehow too critical questions, so others are not addressed". For those who may still be undecided, but for whom the AfD is an option, it might help. This topic media, so that he wants to give interviews now no more. I think he honestly would have done so too. Of course he would associate with it, just as he has already attacked SPIEGEL reporting somehow as a hoax and something else. This is part of the strategy of further splitting up the population and, so to speak, driving a wedge into the topic of media trust. Whether that's actually with this one interview, so to speak ... I would not take that away from him, because he was so indignant because he suddenly wants to stop giving interviews. That's nasty.

[00:07:31] Matthias Kirsch There was another event, now, most recently last week, which is likely to have an impact on the election campaign, namely the terrorist attack in Halle.

[00:07:40] Einspieler In Halle an der Saale two people have been shot in an apparently anti-Semitic attack. At least two more people were injured. The perpetrator had armed himself so that he could have killed all 70, 80 people in the small synagogue of Halle.

[00:07:57] Matthias Kirsch It was, as we now know, an antisemitic, a racist act. How did the AfD react to this attack?

[00:08:05] Ann-Katrin Müller Yes, that was interesting. The AfD was with the fastest party that has somehow written directly online that it is very bad and that they have nothing to do with it. Also Björn Höcke, about whom we have spoken so much, has tweeted directly and posted on Facebook: "What are those only for people who do this to other people ?!" The quickest possible distance was the goal, so to speak, because, after the murder of Walter Lübke, I think, they already noticed the debate that ensued. How do words contribute to such acts that can harm you? And now the goal was through a great many press releases - I think so much I have never gotten on a subject from the AFD - just to show, okay, we really do not want to be associated with that. And at the same time, you have always tried to set this spin: Please do not exploit that politically, so please do not use this politically now this act to somehow mend our leg. Interestingly enough, it's the other way round if it could help the AfD. Namely, for example, when the Eritrean at Frankfurt's main station mother and child came across.

[00:09:13] Einspieler At Frankfurter Hauptbahnhof several tracks are blocked. In the morning, a mother and her eight-year-old child fall onto the tracks.

[00:09:19] Ann-Katrin Müller Then of course that was immediately part of Merkel's policy. There is definitely a double standard measure.

[00:09:26] Matthias Kirsch At the same time there are also many voices saying that the aggressive language, the partly racist and anti-Semitic language that comes from members of the AfD, has also contributed with their part to this attack has happened.

[00:09:40] Ann-Katrin Müller Definitely. I would also say that the AfD has publicly postponed the measure of how to speak and that it has radicalized and that it contributes, as it were, to a much wider debate about certain things than might be necessary , And if you look at where the culprit has radicalized, where he has his set pieces for his conspiracy theory, which is a bit mixed up, then it's just in the environment in which even AfD trolls move.

[00:10:13] Matthias Kirsch But now looking at the state elections in Thuringia: is the AfD instrumentalizing this attack in any way?

[00:10:22] Ann-Katrin Müller She instrumentalizes him for herself insofar as she wants to prove once again that she has nothing to do with it. That now individual politicians again demand that Mr Gedeon, who was struck by anti-Semitic remarks, then finally should exclude from the party and there again say that this democracy, these terrible arbitration that this all last so long and try again to point out, we have nothing to do with it. They try again, as well as after the last state elections in Brandenburg, again this label, we are so bourgeois to bring again and not to be drawn into a new debate as to Lübke.

[00:10:57] Matthias Kirsch Let's take another look at the state election in Thuringia. In the polls, the AfD is the second strongest force. It is very likely that she will also be the second strongest force in the elections, just as in Saxony and Brandenburg. Does the AfD in Thuringia despite the radical position of the national association success? Or exactly why?

[00:11:19] Ann-Katrin Müller There are also very different opinions. There was a very interesting poll last week by the Institute for Democracy and Civil Society. As 71 percent of those who stated earlier say they can choose to choose AFD, they find the alignment of the Hicks Party just right, with humps and extreme positions. And 29 percent say they are to the right. That is, this hope that some had, or this idea that it is perhaps a protest election and that you choose this party despite Höcke, is just true for a third, and the rest is so to speak, totally satisfied with it and just committed to to tick so right.

[00:11:59] Matthias Kirsch But you can not say now, these are all protest voters.

[00:12:02] Ann-Katrin Müller In general, the time of the protestors is simply over with the AFD, because they now know very well what they stand for. And if you just want to protest and not be right, then you would probably choose something different now than the AfD.

[00:12:19] Matthias Kirsch Either way, how it finally looks in numbers after the election: The AfD will probably have the same problem as in Saxony and Brandenburg namely, that despite strong results no one work with her want.

[00:12:31] Ann-Katrin Müller Yes, stand now that's the case. There is always such a strange moment when maybe the election is going very badly and the leaders of the other parties are blown away by the bad election result or being supported in the party, you do not know where you never know exactly, then what all can happen like that. I can not imagine now that there is any form of coalition with the AfD.

[00:12:54] Matthias Kirsch Nevertheless it is important for the AFD depending on the election result. in which direction is it? If it was again a strong election result, as now in this entire East German election-fall - still no government perspective in the end. What does that mean for the future of the AfD?

[00:13:12] Ann-Katrin Müller On the one hand it helps the AfD a bit, because of course it is much easier to say, we are in opposition and you can criticize everything. You never have to say exactly what you would do if you governed. This is of course much easier than having a clear perspective. And it also helps the AfD in the point that she just has not quite decide how right she wants to be right now. In that sense, I would still not plead for it, then to say yes, that's why you should now give a government alternative, but that just makes it clear how difficult it is to meet the AFD on such factual level as other party.

[00:13:50] Matthias Kirsch A bullet point you mentioned: the AfD, who has to decide how right she really is. What do these elections in the East mean for the orientation of the AfD at the German federal level?

[00:14:01] Ann-Katrin Müller Well, I would say that the two elections that we have had and now the election that is still to come, with Thuringia, the "wing", an absolute power ... one Have given power increase. He can actually rule more or less almost because, as I said earlier, so few people are still fighting back in the party and actually the party leaders have concluded non-aggression pacts with the "wing" if they were ever against the "wing" or as Gauland anyway find the "wing" quite well. And in late November, early December is a party conference with board elections. And there will probably be several claims from the local associations power claims in terms of national board seats.

[00:14:41] Matthias Kirsch Also Björn Höcke?

[00:14:43] Ann-Katrin Müller I can well imagine that he ... Well, he said something similar at the "wing" meeting.

[00:14:50] Björn Höcke (AfD) I can assure you that this Federal Board will not be re-elected in this composition.

[00:14:56] Ann-Katrin Müller I think it was not related to the fact that he now wants to suddenly become party leader, but rather that the power of the East associations and the "Flügelianer" grow above all in the federal executive should. It may be that he will try to join the federal executive committee. On the other hand, it will be very difficult for him. I rather believe that someone like Mr. Kalbitz wants to get back on the board and that someone like Tino Chrupalla is likely to stand as party leader. And if Mr. Gauland does not change his mind again, then I can well imagine that he will. He comes from Saxony, is not himself in the "wing", but has nothing against the "wing" and says he has no substantive differences. In this respect, this position of the "wing" would in any case be very strong again, also in the federal party. And that makes you stronger again.

[00:15:40] Matthias Kirsch Anne-Katrin, thank you very much for the insight into the interior of the AfD!

[00:15:44] Ann-Katrin Müller With pleasure.

[00:15:45] Matthias Kirsch Now we have talked a lot about the peculiarities of the Thuringian AfD. But what does it look like in Thuringia? How is the election campaign going? And what are the current survey results for coalition opportunities? To answer these questions, I phoned Timo Lehmann. Timo is SPIEGEL editor in Leipzig and currently reports a lot from Thuringia. Hello Timo.

[00:16:08] Timo Lehmann Hello.

[00:16:09] Matthias Kirsch Timo, you experience the election campaign in Thuringia almost every day on site. Which topics dominate this election campaign?

[00:16:17] Timo Lehmann I would say that in comparison to Saxony and Brandenburg it is a very quiet election campaign. The situation in Saxony was unbelievably tense, which was also noted by the candidates. In Thuringia this is not the case, but rather quiet is broadcast here. It's a bit about education policy, it's also about the internal security and dealing with migration. But there are no topics that, I say, now stand out for the country's politics.

[00:16:47] Matthias Kirsch Okay, let's talk about the current government alliance. In Thuringia yes red-red-green is in power, so left, SPD and Greens with the left Bodo Ramelow as prime minister. It now looks like it is quite possible that Red-Red-Green will no longer have a majority after the election. How did that happen? Did Bodo Ramelow do any bad work with his government?

[00:17:11] Timo Lehmann I would say that, of course, on the one hand, this is a political matter of opinion, as you can see. There have definitely been misconducts by this government, if you look at the territorial reform, the coalition simply failed, it did not move forward. Otherwise, the situation in Thuringia is actually not that bad. So the educational policy ... Although there are no teachers, there are many missed hours, but still the schools in Thuringia are still very high in the rankings. And economically, too, it is actually doing well in Thuringia in that unemployment is very low. Wages are still low, and it is difficult to get there. This certainly leads to a certain dissatisfaction. But otherwise, of course, it is also related to the fact that the AfD has become so incredibly strong that will take away votes from all parties. And that was also extremely extreme in the red-red-green coalition.

[00:18:00] Matthias Kirsch What about Bodo Ramelow? Which standing does he have in Thuringia?

[00:18:06] Timo Lehmann Bodo Ramelow is one of the most popular prime ministers in Germany. He is always very thoughtful and tries to present himself as a doer. For example, I was at a campaign meeting with him in Bad Frankenhausen. It took place in a new gym that was built there for a school. And there was a big window, and you could see from these windows, a new school being built. And then Ramelow took the opportunity to show that something was happening here.

[00:18:37] Bodo Ramelow (The Left) We make steam, we push. We want Thuringia to be a cosmopolitan country and Thuringia to welcome people.

[00:18:45] Timo Lehmann You also have a relatively good situation with regard to the budget, as far as tax revenues are concerned. And then you want to show that he is just a doer who lobbies, who tries when people have problems, that he is actively involved, and staged himself as a country father also very non-partisan, not necessarily as a linker. For example, he did not stand for election posters on the party logo of the left, but tried to be as far as possible a prime minister for all citizens.

[00:19:15] Matthias Kirsch So a country father, a bit comparable perhaps with Winfried Kretschmann in Baden-Württemberg. Nevertheless, Ramelow is now a country father, who must expect to lose his governing majority. Let's take a look at a few scenarios, which could happen after the election. Bodo Ramelow has said it in the past time on Deutschlandfunk:

[00:19:35] Bodo Ramelow (Die Linke) It is part of the question of democratic culture that there were always wires between the CDU and the Left Party in Thuringia when it came to the question of the country.

[00:19:47] Matthias Kirsch Is there any chance that the CDU and the Left work together in Thuringia?

[00:19:54] Timo Lehmann There have been several quotes in the last weeks. Just think of Joachim Gauck, who even called for the CDU to think twice about whether or not it talks to the left. Also Kurt Biedenkopf, the former Saxony-Prime Minister, who is also in the CDU, said in SPIEGEL that he finds Mr. Ramelow very reasonable and that the CDU has changed. But nevertheless: There is a federal decree in the CDU, which excludes any cooperation with left and with AfD. And the reservations are certainly still great. That's why I do not think that will do the CDU in Thuringia.

[00:20:34] Matthias Kirsch If we continue the step though. What's left as an option? In the summer, Bodo Ramelow said in an interview with SPIEGEL that we needed to try out a new policy model in Germany. If no coalition with the CDU is meant, then what?

[00:20:49] Timo Lehmann There are two options, which may also depend on whether the FDP, which stands at four percent, is five percent. One possibility is the minority government you indicated. In Thuringia there is the special case in the state constitution that the state parliament has no time limit for when it chooses a new government. As it were, the existing government can continue to govern until the state parliament decides to re-elect.

[00:21:18] Matthias Kirsch That means the minority government is the one option. Which is the second?

[00:21:23] Timo Lehmann Yes, there is another possibility. When the FDP gets in and the CDU gets a bit stronger, there is also the possibility of a so-called Zimbabwe coalition. Zimbabwe coalition would be SPD, Greens, CDU and FDP - Kenya plus FDP. Since then, the CDU would also be the strongest part. That is, Mike Mohring would have the chance to become Prime Minister of Thuringia, which he clearly wants. You can see that. He certainly has a strong desire to become head of government and has the claim that this possibility exists for him. And then you would actually have the situation that you would have in the other three states, so in Saxony, Brandenburg and Saxony-Anhalt, just just that in addition to the FDP would be there.

[00:22:13] Matthias Kirsch And that then you would have a strong left in the opposition.

[00:22:18] Timo Lehmann Exactly, that would of course already be the difference. While the left in the other three - especially in Brandenburg and Saxony - now look very bad, one can assume that it will be much stronger in Thuringia. And you would have, so to speak, a coalition of many smaller parties and two strong blocks of AfD and Left against it.

[00:22:37] Matthias Kirsch Let's take a look at the SPD and the Greens. We talked about it briefly. These could be important for both Red-Red-Green and Zimbabwe Coalition. How do the SPD and the Greens in Thuringia are doing right now?

[00:22:52] Timo Lehmann Both stand at about nine percent in the latest polls - eight to nine percent - which, of course, I say, for the SPD is already violent, that there is not even the claim made setting up a candidate for the Prime Minister, which in a sense is only realistic, but it is remarkable that the SPD has completely given up in this respect and you are only the top candidate. There is also a euphoric attitude among the Greens. There is also the top candidate in Jena, who could possibly win a direct mandate there. Then there is another young candidate in Weimar, who might also have the chance of a direct mandate. This is a very exciting development for the Greens in Thuringia.

[00:23:40] Matthias Kirsch If we look at it mathematically but now, who could still come to a majority, so would be CDU and AfD. The question of whether the two parties could work together at the state level was two months ago in the room, as was elected in Saxony and Brandenburg. At that time, the CDU top in Berlin was quite clear. Secretary-General Paul Ziemiak, for example, said:

[00:24:02] Paul Ziemiak (CDU) The CDU rejects any coalition and similar forms of cooperation with the AfD - point.

[00:24:09] Matthias Kirsch What is the situation between CDU and AfD in Thuringia?

[00:24:14] Timo Lehmann I'll say that Ingo Senftleben in Brandenburg has indeed opened this option. The parliamentary group leader in Saxony opened this option for a short time, then closed it again. In Saxony-Anhalt there is this discussion, in Thuringia they have not existed so far. I think that if you look at Saxony and Thuringia right now, there are two people who are preventing that from happening. It is in Saxony Michael Kretschmer, in Thuringia there is someone on the AfD side who makes it absolutely impossible and that is Björn Höcke, who is the most prominent representative of the right-wing side in the party. And as long as Björn Höcke is chairman of the state AfD in Thuringia, there is absolutely no way for the CDU to build on that.

[00:25:02] Matthias Kirsch Timo, but if we look at these things now all times, so CDU and Left can not work together in all likelihood, CDU and AfD do not want it. Is Thuringia even capable of majority?

[00:25:15] Timo Lehmann You probably can not say that in the days before the election. It has always been said that countries become ungovernable due to the strength of AfD. In the end, of course, government come about. Whether they are good for the countries in the end? I do not think so. But I think that does not bode well that the AfD is so strong that this development is negative and one can only hope that the polarization, which especially between the existing parties again - maybe even another party, you never know what's going to happen ... but not the AfD, because that direction this party is taking and polarization is not a good thing, and it's just bad for the states.

[00:25:55] Matthias Kirsch Okay, thank you for your assessment, Timo.

[00:25:56] Timo Lehmann Happy .

[00:25:58] Matthias Kirsch That was the vote, the political podcast from SPIEGEL. Maybe you have already noticed, maybe you have also wondered a bit. But since this week, the vote has a new cover. And even if our colleague Sandra Sperber is no longer visible in the picture - do not worry, she will come back.

[00:26:18] I also want to introduce you to our new podcast smarter live here. Every week Lenne Kaffka meets people there who make their lives a little better with small changes. For example, the mindfulness trainer Jacomo, who knows how to meditate while walking. You can listen to smarter live on spiegel.de, but also on Spotify and in all other common podcast apps.

[00:26:42] Just like the vote. The next episode of voting starts as usual from next Thursday. If you would like to send us feedback, please send us an email to voicenfang@spiegel.de or use our voicemail mailbox on 040 380 80 400. To the same number, ie 040 380 80 400. Can you also send us a WhatsApp Send Message. This episode was produced by Yasemin Yüksel and me, Matthias Kirsch. Thanks for the support goes to Sebastian Fischer, Johannes Kückens, Wiebke Rasmussen, Thorsten Rejzek and Matthias Streitz. The vocal music comes as always from Davide Russo.

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