Aleksandar Vucic, as president, advocates the rapprochement of Serbia with the European Union - and simultaneously flirts with Moscow and Beijing. Called under Slobodan Milosevic as a nationalist hardliner and promoted to Information Minister, pursues the lawyer unimpressed by vociferous critics his own course.
As the mouthpiece of the most populous state in former Yugoslavia, the 49-year-old sees himself playing the role of giving voice to the Western Balkans, which the EU has neglected.
SPIEGEL: Mr President, your next visit to Vladimir Putin in Moscow was scheduled for 4 December. Remember to cancel the meeting after Thursday's announcement of the extent to which Russian intelligence agents spied on the Serbian military?
Vucic: No, we do not think so. We want to deepen the good and confidential relationships. But, of course, Serbia wants to show that this is an independent country and knows how to protect its military neutrality. We deal responsibly and seriously with the current situation.
SPIEGEL: How do you want to restore confidence in your traditional ally?
Vucic: We have always been friendly nations. Serbia is ready for good relations, we hope Russia is too. Of course, what has just happened is not easy for us. But what alternative would we have had to go public with it? We have to protect our country.
SPIEGEL: Lastly, did Serbia's most recent foreign policy move work as if you were on a tightrope walk with your country - staggering between West and East?
Vucic: Serbia is on its way to the EU, that is our strategic goal. But at the same time, we have good relations with China and Russia. After all, we must survive and keep an eye on Serbia's interests.
SPIEGEL: Was it necessary, despite massive warnings from Brussels, to sign a treaty with the Eurasian Economic Union - in which Russian-led autocratic-ruled countries such as Belarus and Kazakhstan joined forces?
Vucic: We did not become a member of this union. We have only signed economic and trade agreements. So that we can sell cheese, yogurt, cigarettes and cognac to Russia. As soon as we join the EU, these agreements will become obsolete.
SPIEGEL: Nevertheless, Russia can sell this deal as a strategic stage victory. What did President Vladimir Putin promise you in return?
Vucic: He knows that these are temporary agreements. On the other hand, I have to think about Serbia - we have no access to EU structural funds. Unlike Romania, for example, which has received 60 billion euros from the EU. Nevertheless, Serbia has the highest economic growth in Europe and has a budget surplus for the fourth consecutive year. We attract more than half of all foreign direct investment in the Western Balkans.
SPIEGEL: Your economic rapprochement with Russia is propagandistically used by Moscow as an offensive to Serbia from Europe. Does not that worry you?
Vucic: We have clear and fair relations with Russia. They know what I stand for - with many EU politicians, especially the populist, that is different. They forget when they arrive in Moscow, where they come from. I make it clear in Moscow: we are friends, but Serbia still wants to join the EU.
SPIEGEL: What interest would Moscow have in bringing Serbia economically into its hemisphere? And to deliver even state-of-the-art weapons, which is why the US envoy to the Western Balkans, Matthew Palmer, recently even threatened to sanction your country?
Vucic: The Russians have their interests and we the ours. The Russians give us nothing, but they give us a good price.
SPIEGEL: A larger shipment of Russian war material was intercepted by Romania in July and later transported to Serbia by air. What are you getting ready for?
Vucic: For nothing. But we are deeply grateful to the Russians. Do not forget, we were the only country that has not imposed sanctions on Russia.
SPIEGEL: When Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev arrived in Belgrade in October, he laid a wreath with him under the motto "Death to Fascism - Freedom for the Nations", while at the same time Russian soldiers occupy parts of Georgia and Ukraine. Is not that a mendacious anti-fascist folklore?
Vucic: There can not be too much anti-fascism. Serbs and Russians have suffered a lot - under the Nazis in World War II, or under the allegedly independent state of Croatia thanks to the Nazis, who then killed hundreds of thousands of Serbs. Rather, we would need more memory of those who died just because they did not belong to those nations that liked the Croats or other Nazi satellites.
SPIEGEL: If you meet Putin or Medvedev, are you going to talk about occupied Crimea or Eastern Ukraine?
Vucic: Of course not. I come from a very small country and take care of our very own interests. You Germans can talk to him about it. When I'm with Angela, it's about buying our apples and pears.
SPIEGEL: That's all?
Vucic: Well, we're talking about the so-called Peace Highway. This is the project for which I am accused of being the Serbian biggest traitor by individual compatriots: a 77 kilometer section of highway to Pristina in Kosovo. For me it is about building a bridge, not about building on Greater Albania, as I am partly assumed. Merkel supported us with a 20 percent loan. I ask her where she can help us. I do not care about the world stage, I'm interested in Serbia and the Balkans. Point.
SPIEGEL: China seems to be playing an increasingly important role. They speak of a "friendship hard as steel". Because the Chinese bought their steel mill in Smederevo?
Vucic: Yes, among other things. It's a stable friendship that I'm proud of. When the Americans got out of the steel mill, when bankruptcy was about to happen and 5,000 people were threatened with unemployment, I begged Xi Jinping to 'come and rescue'. He came, and he delivered what he had promised. On the other hand, we did not get the new Volkswagen plant, even though we invested a lot and had all the hopes for it. It is now emerging in Turkey.
SPIEGEL: You feel neglected by the EU?
Vucic: It's their decision. But one thing is clear - I do not want to hear any more lessons about our China contacts from EU politicians who were three times as likely to be in China as I am. The Chinese have bought the high-tech company Kuka in Germany, which is worth ten times as much as anything they have bought in Serbia.
SPIEGEL: Whose hypocrisy do you complain concretely?
Vucic: I think of almost every leading politician in the EU and in the West. I'm not the only one involved in the annual China-Middle-East summits, as EU countries like Poland and Greece are also at the table. But all hack on Serbia, which is typical of the double standards that we meet again and again.
SPIEGEL: Do you treat your neighbor, the EU Member State Croatia, more patiently?
Vucic: Do you think that Serbia would spend nearly 400 million euros on EU funds to build a bridge with the help of Chinese workers, as is happening on the Croatian Adriatic? If this happened to us, I would probably be hanged in Brussels.
SPIEGEL: The originally planned EU accession of Serbia in 2025 is no longer an issue, who is to blame - France's President Macron, who now also blocks the start of negotiations with Albania and northern Macedonia?
Vucic: Now complaining about Macron would be too easy. The real question is: What is the future for us, here in the Balkans? Are you counting on us, or do you just want to buy a reprieve? Be fair to us and stop talking about merit-based admission criteria - if in the end, as the German philosopher Leibniz said, "sufficient grounds" will always be found to reject a country. What we demand is clarity and vision, nothing else.
SPIEGEL: Does the Serbian population run out of patience?
Vucic: According to polls, 42 percent of Serbs are for and 42 percent against EU membership. The rest is undecided. Those who do not want to shake hands with Albania and northern Macedonia must expect increasing rejection in Serbia as well.
SPIEGEL: That would be a fatal signal - especially since you have been appearing for some time as a kind of class representative of the Western Balkans.
Vucic: I was at the Ohrid Summit with the Prime Ministers of Albania and Northern Macedonia, and we agreed on almost all points. Also, I'm going to talk to Macron on behalf of everyone, and I did that last week.
SPIEGEL: Obviously without success. Are you planning your own "mini-Schengen" in the Balkans?
Vucic: We in the Balkans no longer want to talk down or play off each other from big EU countries. My idea of a mini-Schengen zone in the Balkans, that is: free movement of goods and people, contributes to this. We strengthen our economic cooperation. We end the condition that our trucks are at each border for 90 hours. The World Bank estimates the associated savings at 3.5 billion euros in the region.
SPIEGEL: Can this step help to heal the wounds of the Yugoslav war?
Vucic: The project "Mini-Schengen" belongs to the best that has happened in this area for 30 years. No war, no more carnage, instead a kind of Scandinavia for the poor. We can become a growth machine for Europe.
SPIEGEL: Should Kosovo, which, according to international law, still belong to Serbia, be part of the Mini-Schengen project?
Vucic: The Kosovars do not know what they want. The alleged new head of government Albin Kurti sounds as if he wanted to become the leader of Greater Albania. Kosovo sees itself as a state, we do not see it that way. But we could do great business together.
SPIEGEL: Kurti has announced that he will tighten his course towards Serbia. Did you meet him?
Vucic: He once offended my underage daughter and advised her to look for an Albanian as a future husband. "Better manners, you idiot," I answered. What I'm asking: Why did the West actually open the Pandora's Box in 2008 with the recognition of Kosovo?
SPIEGEL: You would have to find out in Washington and Berlin. They recently said that it was "highly unlikely" that Serbia would recognize Kosovo within its existing borders. That sounds, as so often, quite spongy.
Vucic: My position is out of focus, that's right. If it were crystal clear, we would slam the door for all further negotiations, as the Kosovars do. I want to preserve the possibility of a compromise. For that, I have to be insulted by compatriots like ex-Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremic as the biggest traitor of all time.
SPIEGEL: You once stood with Peter Handke at the grave of the war criminal Slobodan Milosevic, now you have announced that you wanted to celebrate with Handke its Literature Nobel Prize in Belgrade. What are you aiming for?
Vucic: Handke is a fantastic guy, he fought with us in a very difficult phase of this country. We are grateful to him from the bottom of our hearts. He did a lot for Serbia.