BBC Host and Chinese Ambassador to the UK Liu Xiaoming Debate Hong Kong

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Written by: Sun Suqing Xu Xuan

2019-11-30 10:02

On November 26, Chinese Ambassador to the United Kingdom Liu Xiaoming accepted an exclusive interview with Stephen John Sackur, a senior host of the BBC's HARDtalk program, on issues related to Hong Kong, Xinjiang and China's peaceful development Explain China's position.

China ’s ambassador to the United Kingdom, Liu Xiaoming, said in an exclusive interview with the BBC that China has no political prisoners and that the Chinese people will not be jailed because of their own thinking because they violate Chinese laws.

Liu Xiaoming and Sack also talked about China's democracy issues and interrupted each other's talks several times.

The comprehensive BBC and the Chinese Embassy's website posted the contents of the dialogue between the two as follows. At the beginning of the interview, the two talked about Hong Kong issues:

Sack: I'm glad to invite you to accept an exclusive interview with our column. Let's start with the Hong Kong issue. The continued turmoil in Hong Kong is this the biggest challenge that President Xi Jinping has faced in his 7 years in office?

Liu Xiaoming: The position of the Chinese government is very clear. Twelve days ago, President Xi Jinping made the most authoritative voice during the BRICS leaders' meeting. That is, stopping violence and restoring order is the most urgent task in Hong Kong.

Sack: China has been saying these things for several months, but the violence in Hong Kong has continued from early summer to the present. In addition to the violence, there is also the general political voice of the public as reflected in the results of the Hong Kong District Council elections last Sunday. The Hong Kong people voted to give the Democrats an absolute majority, expressing their serious dissatisfaction with the Hong Kong SAR government and the central government.

Liu Xiaoming: First of all, I think you need to distinguish peaceful demonstrators from violent criminals. You mentioned the recent district board elections, which shows that the solemn position expounded by President Xi Jinping has had a positive impact. Only in a peaceful environment can people exercise their democratic rights.

Sack: So what does the result of this election mean? Many of the candidates are constitutionalists and many represent the views of opposition and street democratic protesters, and voters can choose. As a result, the opposition won 400 of the 452 seats, gaining an overwhelming majority, and 17 of the 18 district boards were controlled by them.

Liu Xiaoming: First of all, I don't think you should over-interpret the so-called opposition's "overwhelming victory." Although it seems that the opposition won 17 of the 18 district councils, in terms of the voting rate, it is 60% to 40%. 40% of voters did not vote for the opposition. Secondly, in any country, including in Western elections, in the context of riots, turmoil and economic slowdown, those in power are always prone to losing more votes. These are precisely the causes of violent criminals, who have brought huge trouble to Hong Kong.

Sack: But, Ambassador Liu, you and many Chinese officials have been telling us for months that Hong Kong's "silent majority" does not support democratic protest demonstrations. They support the central government. We now know that this is not the case.

Liu Xiaoming: I think it is too early to draw conclusions. I just said that 40% of voters did not vote for the opposition. According to media reports, constitutional candidates were harassed, disturbed, threatened, and some were even assassinated, compared to Mr. Jun Yao. These violent extremists create a climate of terror and prevent some voters from going to the polls. I call it "black terror."

Sack: Mr. Ambassador, you and I have seen everything that happened in Hong Kong on television. The Hong Kong police have implemented brutal and violent "repression" of protesters in recent months, but it has not worked. Chief Executive Lin Zhengyue ultimately represents the interests of China's central government. Her initial response was to quash democratic protests with repeal, but it didn't work. Later, she clearly instructed the police to be tougher, but it didn't work either. What is the central government doing now?

Liu Xiaoming: I don't think you can see the whole picture. The problem is not with the Hong Kong police. I think the Hong Kong Police is the most disciplined, professional and civilized police force in the world. If you compare it with the United Kingdom, how long do you think that similar violence would continue in the United Kingdom?

Sack: But did you see the police shooting the protesters from close range?

Liu Xiaoming: The police fired for self-defense and for the rule of law. In an interview with the BBC News Night program, I quoted Chief Chester Simon Chesterman as saying, "Britain armed police can shoot in the face of a direct threat to life to eliminate the threat and protect the public. Security and the police themselves. "The problem with the British media is that you are just staring at the police response, and turning a blind eye to the violence of the mob. These thugs spilled a flammable liquid on a dissident Hong Kong citizen and set him on fire. You still call the thugs a protester.

Liu Xiaoming and the host talked about Hong Kong Chief Executive Lin Zheng Yue'e:

Sack: Ambassador Liu, we also interviewed the leaders of the protest and asked questions about some of the violent tactics they used, including why they used petrol bombs and other weapons. But the problem now is that the Chinese government faces huge difficulties, violence and turmoil continue, and Lin Zheng's strategy fails. Next, does the more realistic strategy bring Lin Zheng down?

Liu Xiaoming: First of all, I want to say that Chief Zheng has done a good job. Her government and governance team still has the full support of the central government.

Sack: But her governing situation in the past six months has failed.

Liu Xiaoming: I don't think she failed. If external forces are not manipulating behind the scenes and the radical mob does not undermine the dialogue between the SAR government and the public, she will not fail. Chief Executive Lin Zheng and her team made a lot of efforts, and they approached and communicated with the public with an open mind. More than five months since the storm broke out, Chief Executive Lin Zheng and the SAR government have conducted more than 100 dialogues with the people, but extremists have not given them opportunities.

Sack: You are a senior ambassador. You know how diplomacy works. Lin Zheng can now make a choice. She could concede and set up a truly independent investigative committee to investigate the police's behavior in recent months; she could also push for the popular election in the next Chief Executive election. Otherwise, the Hong Kong police will not be able to restore order, and the Chief Executive will have to rely on 12,000 garrisons to implement more severe crackdowns. Have you considered this prospect seriously?

Liu Xiaoming: Chief Executive Lin Zheng and his team made every effort to solve the problem. At first, she set aside the fugitive extradition regulations and later revoked them. She also proposed four actions, including more than 100 communications with the people. Universal suffrage cannot be achieved overnight and requires legal procedures. The central government is committed to universal suffrage in Hong Kong. If the opposition did not vote to veto the general election in 2015, it could be achieved as early as 2017.

Thacker: Elections for key positions like the Chief Executive are not universal. The Chief Executive candidate is nominated by Beijing and is selected by an election committee composed of thousands of people. I think that your compatriots in Mainland China are paying close attention to what Hong Kong people will achieve in the pursuit of true freedom and democracy. This is what you worry about.

Liu Xiaoming: You ignore another bigger problem. You mentioned too many questions, let me explain one by one. The first is universal suffrage. If the opposition did not vote to veto the suffrage plan in 2015, it could be achieved in 2017. That's not 100% universal suffrage, but universal suffrage has to go step by step.

Sack: Mr. Ambassador, you are a diplomat and you should not whitewash general elections.

Liu Xiaoming: The general election involves two elections, one is the Chief Executive of the SAR, and the other is the Hong Kong Legislative Council. If the opposition does not veto the 2015 universal suffrage plan, next year's Hong Kong Legislative Council election will be a universal suffrage, with 7 million people each with one vote.

Sack: None of this will happen. There is no universal suffrage in Hong Kong. Not long ago, Beijing declared the Hong Kong High Court's judgment that the "Prohibition of Masking Regulations" inconsistent with the Basic Law was invalid. This is eroding the basis of "one country, two systems".

Liu Xiaoming: Your statement is totally wrong. You didn't give me time to answer all your questions. You talked about the fundamental issues in China, and you also said that China is concerned about the flooding of Hong Kong's influence on the Mainland. But in fact, it's not. We just celebrated the 70th anniversary of the founding of the People's Republic of China. You should see how great China has achieved in the past 70 years. The Chinese people have a better life, a happier life, and a longer life. Over the past 70 years, the life expectancy of the Chinese people has increased from 35 to 77. Which country in the world has achieved this? In the 40 years since reform and opening up, China has grown from the world ’s 11th largest economy to the second largest economy, and 700 million people have achieved poverty alleviation. The Chinese people love the Chinese Communist Party, which is the backbone of China! You said that the Hong Kong situation would cause spillover effects in other parts of China, and such a situation simply does not exist.

Sack: You paint a wonderful picture.

Liu Xiaoming: I didn't describe it, these are facts.

Liu Xiaoming talked with the host about human rights, freedoms and surveillance in China:

Sack: No one questions the economic achievements of the Chinese government over the past few decades. If you insist that the Chinese people live happily, why is the Chinese government so afraid of disagreements?

Liu Xiaoming: We are not afraid of any disagreement.

Sack: How many political prisoners does China have?

Liu Xiaoming: There are no political prisoners in China.

Sack: This is not true.

Liu Xiaoming: The Chinese people will not be imprisoned because of their own thoughts. People who are imprisoned because they violate Chinese laws.

Sack: Chinese law actually prevents the existence of political opposition. Whoever does not agree with the Communist Party is against the law.

Liu Xiaoming: There is no such thing as what you said.

Sack: We also see that in the past two or three years, China has increased its monitoring of various social thoughts and actions.

Liu Xiaoming: Can I ask you a question? How many monitor lenses are there in the UK?

Sack: Not as much as China. Britain is not the country with the most monitors in the world.

Liu Xiaoming: So how do you explain that there are so many monitor lenses per capita in the UK?

Sack: I want to say that the number of Chinese monitor lenses has reached one for every two people. With a population of 1.4 billion, China is a society that is hard to imagine being monitored. Why monitor like this?

Liu Xiaoming: Have you been to China?

Sack: Yes.

Liu Xiaoming: When was the last time you went to China?

Sack: About 3 years ago.

Liu Xiaoming: In China, people are very free and happy. Don't you feel it? Do you think the Chinese people are oppressed, intimidated and have a lot of dissatisfaction? In China, you can see people's smiling faces everywhere. Of course, there will be dissatisfaction in any society, but the Chinese people have channels to express their opinions. We have a people's congress and a political consultation system.

You said that China has no street politics, so China has no democracy. However, democracy in China is democracy with Chinese characteristics. You cannot judge other countries by your own criteria, just as we do not judge you by our own criteria.

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