Ukraine's President Selenskyj on Putin and Trump: "I do not want us to act like beggars"

On December 9, the heads of state and government of Russia, Ukraine, France and Germany will meet in Paris. The summit in "Normandy format" should help settle the war in Donbass. The smoldering continues, despite an agreement negotiated in 2015 in Minsk.

For Volodymyr Selensky, the President of Ukraine, it will be the first meeting with Vladimir Putin. Selenskyj aroused hope in the election campaign for a lasting peace and struck conciliatory tones. As president he has reached an exchange of Ukrainian and Russian prisoners.

That's why expectations for the summit - the first since 2016 - have grown. But so far, the Minsk agreement proved difficult to implement. It provides for concessions from Kiev, including a "special status" for those areas controlled by pro-Russian separatists. In fact, Moscow is in charge there.

In conversation in Kiev Selenskyj tries to dampen expectations. The meeting was held on Saturday with representatives from SPIEGEL, "TIME", "Le Monde" and "Gazeta Wyborcza".

SPIEGEL: The fact that there is a Normandy meeting at all has already become a rarity, there is little movement in conflict. With what expectations do you come?

Volodymyr Selenskyj: The previous meetings lasted many hours and varied, but mostly the participants said the same things to each other in turn. I studied these meetings. Everyone arrived in such a way that nothing came out in the end. At least that's my impression. France and Germany have done a lot to make these meetings happen. For me, that alone is a victory. I think it's a win if people can speak instead of weapons.

SPIEGEL: What do you want to achieve in practice?

Selenskyj: You have to understand that for me human lives are paramount. That's how I ran my election campaign, and that's my moral sense. And that's why I do not understand why we all just discuss special status and areas and roads and humanitarian convoys. If this is not a game and we are serious then let's start with humans.

The first is a prisoner exchange, with foreseeable deadlines. I'm sure France and Germany are in favor of it, and for now I do not see why Russia can oppose it. But there are very sensitive questions. The fighters in Donbass, for example, confirm a list of prisoners, but we have information about a very different number.

The second story - which is very complicated - is the truce. At all Minsk meetings, with all agreements and explanations she was among the first, most important points. But even if the shooting less often and the number of victims has become much smaller - it has not stopped. And the third point, before proceeding to elections, is the complete withdrawal of all illegal military units - of whatever kind, in which uniform, with which weapons.

When these three points are resolved, you will see if we all want to end the war. We ourselves want that for sure. But then we will see if Russia really wants it.

Alexey Furman / THE MIRROR

Selensky wants no war in Donbass - "but there are many hotheads"

SPIEGEL: The Minsk Agreement provides for local elections in the disputed territories. You say: Ukraine will not get involved in elections without a previous withdrawal?

Selensky: Never. The elections take place under Ukrainian law. And the Ukrainian law excludes the presence of gunmen. All Ukrainian parties must have access, observers, journalists, the OSCE, the Central Electoral Commission. If there are armed groups, no party will go there.

SPIEGEL: Will you be able to control the border with Russia?

Selenskyj: That will be the most difficult question of all - if we ever come to discuss it. I tell them honestly: I disagree with how this issue was resolved in Minsk. According to the Minsk agreement, elections will come first, then control over the border.

SPIEGEL: You want the border first, then the elections?

Selenskyj: That is the position of the Ukrainians in general. But it is not the Minsk Agreement. Unfortunately, we have a contradiction there. And of course you have to address that.

"I do not want Ukraine to be a figure on the chessboard of the Great Powers"

SPIEGEL: What will you do if nothing comes of the negotiations in the end?

Selensky: In any case, I will not start a war in Donbass. However, I know that there are many hotheads, especially those who are currently walking on the streets, saying: Come on, we're recapturing Donbass! But at what price? I believe that these people are driven by the previous rulers. And frankly, that wonders me. And not just me - ask the politicians abroad. Everyone is surprised that such people are supported and fueled, saying: This is our country, tomorrow we'll get it.

SPIEGEL: You will meet Putin personally for the first time. How is your relationship so far?

Selenskyj: I had three phone calls and they were productive. After all, we have brought back our seafarers arrested in Russia, as well as political prisoners. That's what the first two talks were about. And in the third, we talked about energy security in Europe.

So far we have received between two and a half and three billion dollars a year for the transit of Russian gas through the Ukraine. Of course, we are conducting negotiations on three sides: Ukraine, Russia, EU.

SPIEGEL: A closed ten-year contract for gas transit expire on 31 December - and it is unclear whether Russia or gas will ever lead through Ukraine. Because soon the underwater pipeline Nord Stream 2 will be finished, with which it can bypass the Ukraine.

Selenskyj: Nord Stream 2 has significantly weakened our bargaining position. Although our European partners claim that this is not a political but an economic project, I allow myself to disagree. However, if we succeed in closing a new transit treaty for up to ten years, if the Europeans help us and Russia does not oppose it, then this argument gets its feet, so to speak, that Nord Stream 2 is not a political project. So far, it is an assertion without any basis.

SPIEGEL: And what did Putin signal to you?

Selenskyj: He took note of our position. For me it is important that the gas issue is a question in itself. No matter what the wishes of both sides, they must not be connected in any way with the Donbass. Although I do not rule out that the gas transit is also addressed in Normandy format.

Alexey Furman / THE MIRROR

Selensky with SPIEGEL correspondent Christian Esch: "Ukraine does not sell"

SPIEGEL: The United States is missing in Normandy format. Ukraine has been insisting for some time that they play a more active role, and there has been a special representative, Kurt Volker, who has made an effort ...

Selensky: He tried very hard, and also achieved a lot. The times I met him, I saw that he was very active and defended our positions.

SPIEGEL: Now Kurt Volker has resigned as part of the impeachment proceedings against US President Trump. How do you see the role of the USA in the future?

Selenskyj: I do not want Ukraine to be a figure on the chessboard of the great powers, that we can be pushed around, pushed forward or sold off. I want Ukraine to become a subject. It is already one, but it is so well perceived in the world among the big players, the empires like United States, Russia, China.

I wish the US - and I feel it too - that they help us, and that they understand that we are subject, that they do not have any collusion with others behind our backs. The United States sends something like a signal to the world, to the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank, to Europe. And when they say Ukraine is a corrupt country, that's a very tough signal. I want the United States to understand: This is a different country now, we are completely different people. Of course, the authorities have been corrupted for a long time, but we clean up.

"I do not have to convince Trump"

SPIEGEL: "They are corrupt and steal money," Trump personally said recently about the Ukrainians. What do you want to do to convince him?

Selenskyj: I do not have to convince him. I told him at our meeting that I do not want him to have such a picture of our country. And that he should just come here and see how we live and above all what we are for people. It seemed to me that he heard me. At least he said at the meeting: Yes, I see, they are young, new people. We had a big delegation at the meeting.

SPIEGEL: In Washington, we discuss how the blockade of US military aid related to those investigations, you asked for the Trump in a telephone conversation in July. When did you notice that there was a connection?

Selenskyj: I did not talk to US President Trump in this attitude - I'll give it to you, you'll give it to me. That's something I completely miss. That's the way I talked to President Putin - you release these people, we release those people. As for the United States, I do not want us to act like beggars. But you have to realize that we are at war. And if you are our strategic partner then you should not block any help. It's about fairness for me. It's not about a quid pro quo, it's just a story in itself.

SPIEGEL: You've also received conflicting signals from Europe recently. President Macron speaks of NATO's "brain death" and wants to improve relations with Moscow - he warns against seeing a common enemy in Russia.

Selenskyj: I do not know how he put it exactly. And I can not comment on NATO, we are not a member. I have addressed the Ukrainian position with him, and he said, of course, we support the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine. Europe's leaders have guaranteed me that the sanctions policy will remain as long as we do not get back all our lost territories.

SPIEGEL: Are not you a little bit worried that you will be left alone with Putin at the summit in Paris?

Selenskyj: I am a person who reacts to facts. I believe that European politicians must and will help us. But I'll notice in the first half hour, if that's the case, and the special thing about me is, if I notice it at the negotiating table, then I'll say it in public.

SPIEGEL : And what about the support in the separatist areas?

Selenskyj: A survey is being handed out that the majority of people want to live in Russia. That is not true. I believe and know that there are people who are for Ukraine. Then there are the lost ones. And finally, there are those who are for Russia. Those who are for Russia, can move away, Russia currently distributes illegal Russian passports. Every human being has the right to choose where he wants to live.

But to say on the territory of Ukraine, I am a citizen of Russia and this is my soil, I think that is wrong and unfair. That will not do. As for those who are lost: If someone has a Ukrainian passport and then additionally accepts a Russian passport, and gets social support from here as well as from there, then he has gone astray. I have no moral right to call 'Pfui'. You have to bring these people back to fight them. But I would not fight for the people who consider themselves only Russians.

SPIEGEL: Suppose that negotiations are not progressing because Russia blocks everything. Do you have a "Plan B"?

Selenskyj: I do not want to talk about my Plan B at the moment - that's why he's called Plan B because I believe in Plan A. But it does exist, of course. And one thing I would like to clarify: my plan B is not that everything stays as it is now.