Voice # 124 - Volkisch "wing" strengthened: Where the AfD steers after the congress
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Actually wanted to Kay Gottschalk, former party member of the AfD, remain on an associate post in the party executive. But the folk-nationalist "wing" has something against it: In the summer, Gottschalk criticized namely with other so-called moderate AfDlern the personality cult to Björn Höcke.
The result? Gottschalk loses two assessors votes, both against "wing" people. He does not compete for the third time.
Like Gottschalk, the party convention of the AfD is attended by several so-called moderates. Has the "wing" finally taken over power in the party? That's what the new episode of "Stimmenfang" is all about.
We want to know from the defeated Bundestag member Gottschalk: Do critics of the right wing still have any place in the AfD? And our colleague Ann-Katrin Müller explains how the "wing" opponents lose control of the AfD.
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The complete transcript
[00:00:02] Matthias Kirsch Welcome to Stimmenfang, the political podcast from SPIEGEL. I am Matthias Kirsch.
[00:00:10] Björn Höcke (AfD) I can assure you that this Federal Board will not be re-elected in this composition.
[00:00:18] Matthias Kirsch This prediction was made by Björn Höcke, the AfD head in Thuringia in July this year. That was the Kyffhäuser meeting, the annual assembly of the ethnic-nationalist wing of the AfD, so to speak. Now, at the Federal AfD convention, exactly what Höcke predicted months before happened. The party executive has changed a lot. And the "wing" has now become even more powerful within the AfD. What does that mean? Where is the party heading now? And do the more moderate non-wing sympathizers now even have a place in the AfD? That's what this episode is about. We will hear from an AfD politician who has been ousted from the wing. But first I talk to Ann-Katrin Müller, who writes for the Spiegel about the AfD. Hello, Ann-Katrin.
[00:01:11] Ann-Katrin Müller Hello.
[00:01:12] Matthias Kirsch Ann-Katrin. There were some personnel changes at the AFD. Alexander Gauland is now honorary party chairman, for example. His former office as party leader now has Tino Chrupalla. Tino Chrupalla may not be quite as familiar to our listeners as this is not so well known yet. Who is this man?
[00:01:32] Ann-Katrin Müller Tino Chrupalla is 44 years old, married, has three children. That's what he also said in his speech:
[00:01:38] Tino Chrupalla (AfD) Dear party friends, I come from Weißwasser in the Upper Lusatia, the last corner of Silesia, which is still in Germany today. I am married, I have three children aged 6, 16 and 19 years.
[00:01:52] Ann-Katrin Müller He has become somewhat better known in the party when he managed to defeat Mr Kretschmer in the constituency of Mr Kretschmer at the last general election.
[00:01:59] Matthias Kirsch Kretschmer, the Prime Minister of Saxony.
[00:02:03] Ann-Katrin Müller Exactly. He is just a master painter - and I say that not derogatory. On the contrary, he always says that about himself. That he is just a craftsman who has built a master business, ...
[00:02:13] Tino Chrupalla ( AFD) Definitely . I think we also have to represent our, our voters. I am the strong voice not only of the East, of course, the craftsmen and medium-sized companies, for which I make policy in the Bundestag.
[00:02:24] Ann-Katrin Müller ... who employs six people. And that's why he says he wants to strengthen the economic expertise of the AfD, because that's his topic. He also says he has leadership skills because he can lead these six employees. The AfD is a bit bigger, but good. And you have to say, he has such a pretty charming way. He always manages to portray himself quite well and not to be noticed in his speeches by a sharp-witted attitude - even though he recently made a very loud speech in the Bundestag against Angela Merkel.
[00:02:56] Tino Chrupalla (AFD) The unit also brought us new politicians, for example the incumbent Chancellor Angela Merkel. I regret that she does not tell us what strategies of domination and decomposition she learned at the FDJ back then, how to agitate a people ... (Interjection from the plenum of the Bundestag) ... How to make a people agitated and propagandized keeps in check. That's valuable knowledge.
[00:03:19] Ann-Katrin Müller But in comparison to others in the party, he seems quite, so to say, nicer. But that does not mean that it is different in content. He has already noticed radical things in the past.
[00:03:32] Matthias Kirsch By that you mean that Chrupalla once used the word "Umvolkung" - a term that the constitutional protection classifies as a Nazi language, for example.
[00:03:41] Tino Chrupalla (AfD) Well, it's not desirable that we have three or four children. Of course, we then bring ethnic and religious other cultures here, who want to come here with many children and who of course here this way and also gives them the opportunity to settle here. That's how I call it simple. In fact, one can also speak of a certain "change". You should also use this word sometimes.
[00:04:03] Matthias Kirsch That was also an issue at the weekend. He was addressed, in an interview with Berlin directly on ZDF:
[00:04:10] Thilo Koll (ZDF) In your speech yesterday at the congress, you spoke out against drastic language. But you yourself have already noticed by radical choice of words. For example, you once talked about "Umvolkung" - a term that is part of the constitutional protection report and borrowed from the Nazi language. That means you are distancing yourself from your own language - that is, from yourself?
[00:04:32] Tino Chrupalla (AfD) I did not speak in the ... persona con grata "Umvolkung". I want to deny that quite clearly, although of course I get to hear these terminology in citizen consultation hours and react accordingly.
[00:04:48] Thilo Koll (ZDF) So, we have it from you on video. You spoke of it.
[00:04:49] Tino Chrupalla (AfD) Yes, but I hold the "Umvolkung" ... I do not consider the term "Umvolkung" to be extreme right or even in this form I do not consider it right-wing extremist.
[00:04:56] Matthias Kirsch So even though there's a video of how he says that, he knows that. Is that any tactic? Is that a way to handle it?
[00:05:07] Ann-Katrin Müller It's getting more and more normal in the AfD, easy to lie. I've noticed this more often in research and in direct conversations, that even if you have things in hand, black and white in documents or even on video even or on audio, that they then just claim it was only not been so.
[00:05:25] Matthias Kirsch That said, Tino Chrupalla uses such questionable practices as some of his party colleagues do. He still presents himself as a moderator. What is he really like now?
[00:05:37] Ann-Katrin Müller He is not a clean man. In fact, one has to say that the content has no difference to the "grand piano". He says that himself. He says he only expresses himself differently than a Björn Höcke, but he has no differences in content. Which shows that the party as a whole has already shifted a bit.
[00:05:56] Matthias Kirsch What can you say to Ann-Katrin about his style of politics? How does Tino Chrupalla work?
[00:06:02] Ann-Katrin Müller He is someone who has already set rules in his district association and, so to speak, on a local level, how to do politics there, so to speak. One of these rules, for example, was that it was a blacklist for Journalists should give, where just explicitly states: With these journalists should not be spoken. So he has a very interesting understanding of press freedom. He is also someone who pulls against the public-legal again and again from the leather.
[00:06:28] Matthias Kirsch Can one say now, after this congress, that within the AfD there has now been a power-political shift?
[00:06:35] Ann-Katrin Müller I would say that has happened before and now it was just visible for the first time. So that one can just now, if one looks at the federal executive, can see that there are more than previously "wing" people in it.
[00:06:46] Matthias Kirsch Well, we have now addressed Tino Chrupalla, who has become party leader. Andreas Kalbitz, one of the main heads of the "wing", has also been elected as an associate member of the party executive committee. What does that mean for the "wing" opponents? Are they still represented in the party leadership of the AfD?
[00:07:04] Ann-Katrin Müller In the end no. You have to differentiate a bit. So those who have explicitly expressed themselves earlier on the "wing" critical, those who at least still dared to sign this "Appeal of the 100", where it was about that the cult of personality around Björn Höcke them too far Even if it was not content criticism, but at least it was criticism. These people were not elected. And that is actually what one also sees the power of the "wing" - for example, that Georg Pazderski has not come on the federal executive, that Uwe boy who has started, has not come in, that Kai Gottschalk several times and not came in. All these are those moments.
[00:07:39] Matthias Kirsch Ann-Katrin, now that you're talking about Kai Gottschalk: He's a member of the Bundestag from NRW and was vice-party leader of the AfD. He was, as you said, not re-elected on the weekend. You talked to him at the congress and also brought your reception of this conversation. You hear the party day a bit in the background, but let's still listen to it:
[00:08:02] Ann-Katrin Müller Would you say that is just a success of the "wing" at this party convention or in general that he has prevailed in the party? Or was that a particularly smart delegate election?
[00:08:11] Kai Gottschalk ( AFD ) You have to say, we are on a bad way - very clearly. But that is exactly what the "wing" always demands: you have to take us along and participate. But if he himself has majorities, then he pulls through.
[00:08:23] Matthias Kirsch Somebody like Gottschalk sees here a very clear shift of power in the direction of the "wing". Then you also asked him if he now sees for himself, so a moderate, non-"wing" man, even a place within the AfD.
[00:08:38] Ann-Katrin Müller And you also see a place in this party for yourself?
[00:08:42] Kai Gottschalk ( AFD ) Still yes.
[00:08:42] Matthias Kirsch Gottschalk says: there is still room for the moderates. But, Ann-Katrin, that the wing is now so strongly represented in the party leadership - what does that mean for the more moderate people in everyday work?
[00:08:55] Ann-Katrin Müller That's a good question. First and foremost, the fact that the wing has obviously now issued the new slogan to speak out more moderately. It just will not happen anymore - unless somebody has a bad day somehow or a scandal has to be produced again - that comments like "Monument der Schande" by Björn Höcke are just that.
[00:09:12] Björn Höcke ( AFD ) The Germans, our people, are the only people in the world who plant a monument of shame in their capital.
[00:09:23] Ann-Katrin Müller The strategy is more moderate and yet continues to pursue this radical policy. And to get there on a tightrope, somehow to continue to fuel this attribute of "bourgeois" - which in my opinion can no longer apply, and certainly not for the "grand piano", so to speak and to go further and further into this discourse: how bourgeois are we? Are we still bourgeois? And so on.
[00:09:45] Matthias Kirsch We already talked a lot about the folk-nationalist "wing" of the AfD. Once perhaps to clarify: The "wing" is indeed classified by the constitutional protection as a suspected case in the field of right-wing extremism. This is not as if it were a conservative part of the AfD, but because the constitutional protection has somehow an eye on it.
[00:10:05] Ann-Katrin Müller Definitely. So that's not her kind of flow. This is the current that was very controversial in the AFD when it was founded with the Erfurt Resolution. That is the current, which is why a Bernd Lucke has left, which is why Frauke Petry has resigned. This is virtually the part of the party that has pushed the party further and further to the right. We media and well-informed media have been writing for some time about how powerful this "wing" is. And interestingly, the moderates do not really want that to be true, because in the end they would have to think about whether they still have room in this party. But this congress has just shown that this diagnosis is just right.
[00:10:44] Matthias Kirsch Then let's take a quick look at the conclusion. Where is the AfD heading now, after this party congress?
[00:10:52] Ann-Katrin Müller I would say that she is actually continuing to navigate in the fairway she has been traveling for months, namely on a strong right course. And the question will be simple, how much they indulge in these radical utterances or not. And if they can do it, even in public, to behave accordingly, that they just do not notice by such utterances. Interesting is actually how the constitutional protection reacts to this development and if someday says: This is more than a suspected case and then we want to look even stronger. It is also interesting how the personal connections with people from the identitarian movement and how they care about it now. If there are any more cases, it will be another indication of how closely this scene works together. Then you have to see if there are voters who say: That's going too far then.
[00:11:44] Matthias Kirsch Now, however, both Jörg Meuthen and Alexander Gauland have set other standards at the party congress. Jorg Meuthen, for example, said after his re-election as party leader:
[00:11:53] Jörg Meuthen (AfD) And I say it very clearly: we now have to become governing and capable. That's our job. That's the job for the next two years.
[00:12:02] Matthias Kirsch Alexander Gauland still has this dream:
[00:12:04] Alexander Gauland (AfD) And when green, red and dark red come together, the day will come when a weakened CDU will have only one option left: us.
[00:12:15] Matthias Kirsch Government ability or somehow capable of coalition. Can this happen at all with this party, where the "wing" is getting stronger now?
[00:12:25] Ann-Katrin Müller Well, I do not dare to predict that this will never happen. But I would say that if they were serious, maybe they should finally bring their programmatic work to an acceptable level. Although this party is only six, six and a half years old, as they always emphasize, but it has no pension concept, it has many political issues here in the Bundestag ... are the applications very thin. There are still areas where they have no speakers, where nothing is delivered. And that's a big part of the question: can one get involved someday. Unless, of course, it's all about power and populism and just a mere deportation of the rest of politics.
[00:13:04] Matthias Kirsch But with such strong "wing" sympathizers and partly members in the party leadership, the other parties are certainly not friendly to the AfD.
[00:13:14] Ann-Katrin Müller Nah, I can not imagine that. In fact, the sounds against the AfD are getting louder and louder, even with the CSU, the CDU - there has been in the last few months already really a turn around, how to deal with them. So Markus Söder, ...
[00:13:28] Markus Söder (CSU) The functionaries of the AfD, who are getting stronger, have a different view of the world, they do not want to go back to the 1970s, dear friends, who want to go back to the 1930s [years]. And that's why the AfD ... The AfD is not somehow a more conservative Union, but it is the real new, true NPD and with such people you do nothing, you fight them - and committed and arguable, dear friends.
[00:13:56] Ann-Katrin Müller .... Paul Ziemiak, Secretary General of the CDU, who wrote this letter, a guest post where he said: We can not work with them, these are our opponents.
[00:14:06] Paul Ziemiak The CDU rejects any coalition and similar forms of cooperation with the AfD.
[00:14:13] Ann-Katrin Müller Markus Blume, the secretary-general of the CSU, has said that the protection of the constitution should watch them, that is the new NPD. I just do not know who they want to coalesce with.
[00:14:24] Matthias Kirsch And that no one wants to co-ordinate with the AfD, in the end, perhaps much less because the party in the parliaments does a poor job and much rather that it is a xenophobic party, in parts also racist and extreme right. And I think we can say that as well: With the rise of Tino Chrupalla to the party leadership and from "wing" people in the party executive, this should not change in the near future. Ann-Kathrin, thank you for your assessment.
[00:14:58] Ann-Katrin Müller With pleasure.
[00:14:58] That was votes, the policy podcast from SPIEGEL. The next episode of Stimmenfang will be available on spiegel.de next Thursday, Spotify and all other podcast apps. If you would like to send us feedback, just write an e-mail to Stimmfang@spiegel.de or use our voice mailbox on 040 380 80 400. You can also send us a WhatsApp number to the same number, ie 040 380 80 400. Send Message. This episode was produced by Yasemin Yüksel and me, Matthias Kirsch. Thanks for the support to Philipp Fackler, Johannes Kückens, Wiebke Rasmussen, Matthias Streitz and Philipp Wittrock. The music comes from Davide Russo.