Stimmenfang # 125 - SPD Party Congress: What's next after the near-revolution?
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Actually, everything was ready for a small revolution at the SPD party congress: newly elected bosses with Saskia Esken and Norbert Walter-Borjans; a few hundred delegates without the desire for "keep it up" - and the appropriate motto also existed: "into the new time". But did the SPD succeed?
"From my point of view, the new party leadership at this party congress has moved at least very much in the old ways," says our colleague Christoph Hickmann in the new episode of Stimmenfang. Veit Medick, who writes for SPIEGEL on the SPD, finds: "In the power statics of the party, however, has changed something."
We also asked SPD members what expectations they now have of the new leadership duo.
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The complete transcript
[00:00:02] Matthias Kirsch Welcome to Stimmenfang, the political podcast from SPIEGEL. I am Matthias Kirsch. "In the new time" - that was the motto last weekend at the party convention of the SPD. It was written in huge letters behind the lectern. And it should sound like departure, after the beginning of something new for this party.
[00:00:30] Malu Dreyer (Commissioner, party leader) Dear guests, you realize that today is no ordinary party congress. You can hardly overlook it. Today our Social Democratic Rose is back in the room.
[00:00:42] Matthias Kirsch But how much new is the SPD really doing after this congress? Where do you want Saskia Esken and Norbert Walter-Borjans, the new duo at the top, where do they go?
[00:00:53] Saskia Esken (Party leader SPD) I was and I am skeptical about the future of this grand coalition. I did not change my mind. But: With this lead proposal, we give the coalition a realistic chance to continue. Not more but also not less.
[00:01:08] Matthias Kirsch Where the SPD and their new top hinsteuern, we want to find out in this vote-episode. For this, we asked delegates at the congress, what they expect now.
[00:01:19] SPD delegate I am in favor of hopefully getting out of this Grand Coalition someday.
[00:01:24] SPD delegate I believe that the membership decision showed that there should not be a "farewell" and should not exist.
[00:01:30] Matthias Kirsch But first I greet my two colleagues Christoph Hickmann and Veit Medick here in the studio. Both write for SPIEGEL on the SPD.
[00:01:38] Veit Medick Hello.
[00:01:40] Christoph Hickmann Hello.
[00:01:40] Matthias Kirsch Christoph, with a few days' absence - what is the realization after this congress?
[00:01:46] Christoph Hickmann The realization is that there is a new party leadership, but that nevertheless not everything is new. I would try that at three points. Item 1: Dealing with the Grand Coalition. Since the party congress has taken a decision, which now provides for a few talks with the Union. In the end, the party executive, the newly elected, will decide on these results. And I would dare to predict that it is quite probable that the SPD will stay in this Grand Coalition for now. An application that would have meant an immediate end was rejected at the party congress with a clear, over-significant majority.
[00:02:24] Anke Rehlinger (Deputy Party Chairman) The first was the clear majority. Thus, the amendment is not included in the text.
[00:02:32] Christoph Hickmann Point 2: This is a bit of something internal, but - I think - also speaks volumes. It was about the number of deputy party leaders. There was a suggestion to reduce the number from six to three, to say, we are doing all this a bit leaner at the top. The people are thus also visible. And then it was almost like a fight candidate - Hubertus Heil against Kevin Kühnert.
[00:02:54] Kevin Kühnert (Deputy Party Chairman) I am now 30 years old and actually no longer part of this young generation. In football, I can play in two years with the Old Men, and my second third of life has now begun. It says something about the political work we do not just do in the SPD, but in general that people like me are referred to here as the offspring or "these young people". Breaking these mechanisms starts with advancing and running for office. And I do that today, dear comrades.
[00:03:22] Hubertus Heil (Deputy Party Chairman) We are different. But I have also learned one thing as a minister of employment in business and administration and this applies to the economy and also to politics. Diverse teams of women and men of different origins with common ideas of mission are more successful than monotonous stews, dear comrades. And that's how I want to see this team understood. I ask for your trust and support, thank you.
[00:03:47] Christoph Hickmann That would have been a wonderful fit in this new story. One would have said, we have an openness here. We do not propose a finished staff panel to the congress, but let the delegates decide, the two run against each other. The better speaker wins in the end. But then in the end was too much confrontation, was avoided. It was laced again a package, so that the fight candidate could be bypassed. Point 3: Dealing with Hartz IV / welfare state. Also there were efforts, for example, to end the abolition of all sanctions at the party congress. Even that could not prevail. In the end, there was a compromise, which is basically the case law of the Constitutional Court. In this respect, one can say from my point of view: new party leadership, which then has moved at least very much in the old ways at this party congress.
[00:04:33] Matthias Kirsch So maybe not so much in the new time, you mean. Veit, you just shook your head, do you disagree?
[00:04:41] Veit Medick I actually see it a bit differently as well. I think that a bit has changed in the SPD, more so below the surface, but also in the content - you have already mentioned it. The SPD has also decided to reintroduce wealth tax. They have repositioned themselves financially, have actually adopted the mantra of the black zero, the principle of black zero. You even questioned the debt brake.
[00:05:05] Norbert Walter-Borjans (party leader) But I also say that if black zero opposes a better future for our children, then it is wrong. Then she has to go. And that also applies - let's not fool ourselves - if we do not want to avoid it somewhere, then it also applies to the debt brake.
[00:05:24] Veit Medick These are also real financial policy decisions that the Minister of Finance must first swallow. And of course in the statics of power things have changed, too, because this new party leadership, which has now been elected to office, was indeed elected to office with the mood "We will not let those who have been there for 20 years tell us again, Where are you? "
[00:05:46] Matthias Kirsch Those are the ones who are sitting in the ministers of ministry, especially now ...
[00:05:50] Veit Medick Exactly. That's why, I think, there was something about the relationship between party and party leadership on the one hand and Cabinet, Minister and faction on the other. And you will notice that in the next few weeks and months, when it comes to the "talks" with the Union. Of course, the SPD party leadership will have an interest in somehow arguing this as a compromise, but not as far-reaching compromises. And the ministers, on the other hand, will be interested in saying: well, at least we got something out. That is, the interests are also in opposite directions, these two new centers of power. I find that exciting to watch.
[00:06:27] Matthias Kirsch You [Christoph] had said at the beginning: Again and again such packages were laced, as no clear decisions were made. Looking back on this motto "In the new time" - was that redeemed at this congress?
[00:06:41] Veit Medick Well, I would say that I would try to clarify that in two ways. Once I would say: Definitely not for the grand coalition, because the whole principle that the SPD has used in the past two years somehow always makes sense of the coalition agreement, maybe even leaving it a bit more, and then in negotiations and talks with the Union to go - that is now continued and with uncertain outcome. That is, self-employment within the Grand Coalition will not stop. My feeling is that it will not stop in the next three months, but it will continue until the end of the 2021 legislature. That means: Since you have actually more or less decided the status quo once again. Programmatically - and that's the interesting thing - the SPD is now trying to emancipate itself a bit from the coalition. So try to do what Andrea Nahles has always promised: separate party and government more or less, ...
[00:07:39] Andrea Nahles (former party chairman) Speaking of government team. You can renew a party in government. I want to start this proof tomorrow, dear comrades.
[00:07:50] Veit Medick ... so the party has more leeway, more air to develop any new ideas. She never did that, was one of her worst mistakes, I think. And this is what Walter-Borjans and Esken are trying to do by reintroducing wealth tax, questioning the debt brake, setting certain course points that allow the SPD to think differently from staying in the coalition logic all the time.
[00:08:13] Christoph Hickmann I would like to add one more point: at first I questioned that this was really a departure into the new era, but nevertheless I would like to turn it around again. If you imagine, someone else would have won this runoff and Olaf Scholz would have been under this motto - "In the new time". Of course, that alone would have had a profoundly implausible level of personnel. And in this respect one can say: With the choice of this top duo, it is with the "new time" certainly something better redeemed, as if there were Olaf Scholz and Klara Geywitz.
[00:08:43] Matthias Kirsch Now, Norbert Walter-Borjans and Saskia Esken have been chosen anyway with this enemy model Grand Coalition. Saskia Esken once said:
[00:08:52] Saskia Esken (party leader SPD) Groko does not build a fair future. The GroKo has no future. We have to get out of this. But with plan.
[00:08:59] Matthias Kirsch Are they somehow damaged or with a credibility problem from this congress, which has not made such a clear demarcation from the government?
[00:09:07] Veit Medick This is the biggest danger for both of them, that they are seen to have gone in there as GroKo critics and gone out as GroKo fans. Quite so, of course, it is not, but they have been chosen by a vibe that was clearly in favor of maximum distance from the grand coalition, and that they have been trying to come to terms with this alliance, if not their core competence one may question, namely the credibility with which they have always tried to score points and to distinguish themselves from Olaf Scholz. Their motto was "steadfastly social-democratic". Steadfastness has been such a thing in the last few days, and it will show how sustainable its core has been damaged already or how quickly they can recover from it. I'm curious, I consider open the exit.
[00:09:57] Matthias Kirsch But is not that exactly what the problem is, what they have now, so they yell a little bit back and forth - sharply against the GroKo, then again a bit undecided?
[00:10:07] Christoph Hickmann I would warn against always treating this as a problem. We are fast in this logic here in Berlin, this can only do the political professionals who have been doing this for years or even decades. Otherwise, maybe it's just a moment of perplexity, of searching, of orientation. Well, that's democracy in the end. And now two people have been elected in there who have not done that before. Yes, and now you'll see if that works. This can be called "lick around", but you can also think about whether you should allow such people maybe a short orientation phase, then, when they are in, of course, to assess and judge whether and how it works.
[00:10:42] Matthias Kirsch But you should also give you this orientation phase, if you have come up with such a clear enemy image - Grand Coalition - somehow and now you could get the feeling as a SPD supporters: Now are the times in office and now all of it is diluted, weakened?
[00:10:58] Veit Medick You should not necessarily give that to you. We also report that critically, and we also state that you are running a credibility problem there. But I still agree with Christoph that maybe the normal rules of how we rate politics, how people rate politics, may have changed. For example, I remember Saskia Esken's performance with Anne Will, one day after winning the runoff. Since she had to justify herself for the allegation that came up in the round because she would not have done so much political before, she had sat, inter alia, only in Baden-Württemberg in the provincial parents' council.
[00:11:35] Saskia Esken (party leader SPD) This has been a situation that is not so badly comparable to the SPD - a reasonably quarrelsome store.
[00:11:44] Ursula Münch (Director Academy for Political Education) But the responsibility is a bit different.
[00:11:46] Saskia Esken (Party leader SPD) That may well be, but that does not mean that I am unable to grow into this task. In my opinion, if we can always allow and allow and imagine that people are leading parties or getting involved in offices that have not done anything else in the past 20 years. Then we will never change anything.
[00:12:06] Veit Medick With conventional glasses - even our often conventional glasses - one would of course say: What a madness! The woman is trying to defend herself there now. It is completely ridiculous. But maybe the glasses are not right anymore. Maybe people also want to see politicians who just do not do everything as it has always been done, because that also leads to mistakes, especially in the SPD. People like Olaf Scholz, people like Andrea Nahles, who for decades have done nothing but the SPD and government policies, are now responsible for where the SPD is now. And who says that somebody who was the provincial parish advisor in Baden-Württemberg would automatically be badly qualified? I would be a little more cautious, as maybe I was earlier.
[00:12:51] Matthias Kirsch Interesting point. Maybe just do not look at things with these conventional glasses. Nevertheless, I want to get back to the point where we were before. After all, the new leadership duo went into the party convention with a sharper attitude towards the Grand Coalition than they have now come out.
[00:13:10] Christoph Hickmann There's a third party in the league that I'd like to talk to again. This is Kevin Kühnert, who is, so to speak, Mister Anti-GroKo par excellence. He led the campaign against the grand coalition two years ago when it came down to doing that again or not? He, too, showed himself to be very conciliatory at this congress, and one has noticed in the days before with him: Well, he does not have it quite so fast. He actually argues quite realpolitisch for some time, as far as the Grand Coalition is concerned, says internally: We do not want a quick, cold exit, we can not. He will not get rid of this label of the anti-GroKo man. And that's why the credibility problem is almost bigger for him than for the two, because he's so easily associated with the subject.
[00:13:55] Matthias Kirsch That's right, Kevin Kühnert is also at the party congress and even before that occurred much less radical in GroKo than it is used to from him. But I think you have to say that too. At the congress Kühnert also said this sentence here:
[00:14:10] Kevin Kühnert (Deputy Party Chairman) My confidence in the fact that conversations are actually open, that there is no predetermination to carry on or, if it does not work, also to go out, is clearly connected with these two persons who will lead these negotiations. I trust the two of them that they know very well what message they have been elected by the members, by the majority of our party's members, last Saturday. And that message was not "keep it up", not "keep it up" in content in some places, but also not "keep it up" in style and form as compromises are made as negotiations are conducted.
[00:14:47] Matthias Kirsch What he makes clear then is that he expects something from the new top, namely that something changes. And we asked ourselves, as the SPD members see. Of those have voted a lot for Norbert Walter Borjans and Saskia Esken and certainly partly because of their critical GroKo attitude. My colleagues Carolin Katschak and Charlotte Schönberger asked people at the congress, what they expect from the new leadership.
[00:15:23] Carolin Katschak What do you think about the fact that the two of them have been quite backward in terms of GroKo?
[00:15:23] SPD delegate They never said we should go out, go out.
[00:15:24] Carolin Katschak Mrs. Esken already.
[00:15:24] SPD delegate Well, Mrs Esken said that this coalition is not a wished -for coalition. But that now follow direct exit, both did not say. And it's just a realistic position as well. You do not break a coalition just to break a coalition.
[00:15:38] SPD Delegate I'm in favor of staying a GroKo. We have been able to enforce many good laws against the CDU in recent months.
[00:15:45] SPD delegate I am in favor of hopefully getting out of this Grand Coalition someday.
[00:15:50] SPD delegates I believe that the membership decision has shown that there should not be a "farewell" and should not exist. The two promised. That's what they wrote on the flags. And I think so too. I definitely want to believe it.
[00:16:03] SPD delegate I think you have to let them do it first. I think that you do not have to put the expectations too high, but wait for the first hundred days of the two. I do not think we can expect miracles from day to day right now.
[00:16:14] SPD delegates In their election campaign you've already emphasized leftist postings and I would find it very important if they stick to those left-wing positions now, so really show that they are also trying to enforce what they have demanded during the election campaign. That would be very important to me that they do not make too many compromises, but now really give gas.
[00:16:33] Matthias Kirsch The answers of the SPD supporters are quite mixed. Do you know that the new party leaders ... have a clear plan for themselves, a very clear direction or does that also depend on the talks with the Union?
[00:16:47] Christoph Hickmann I think they can not have a plan at all. They have no staff who have ... they were - at least our perception - quite surprised by their own election victory. Were busy in the days leading up to the congress, to give interviews, somehow cast the lead request in a form. Let's see, how are the fronts going? How are the shavings sorted in the face of this new center of power? Prepare your speeches, all those things that were done within a few days. And that's why I would say, without wanting to offend them, that there can not be anything as big as a plan. Especially as unlike, for example, someone with a lot of government experience like Olaf Scholz, they have no experience whatsoever about sitting together with the leaders of other parties in such a coalition committee. I would say that you really have to go to the country for two, three, four, five weeks; let's see in which direction they open; Let's see how such a first coalition committee goes. I would not dare to judge it right now.
[00:17:45] Veit Medick I totally agree with you. They have something to do with such practical things. You have to imagine that: They are now entering the party headquarters, the Willy-Brandt-Haus, where someone else had previously sat, namely only a party leader, Andrea Nahles. They have to decide things as simple as how do we do that with the offices? If we have two offices, we sit in the community office. Who do we as office managers, as press spokesman, their closest environment. That must first be created. You will not bring that with you.
[00:18:13] Matthias Kirsch So very practical problems.
[00:18:17] Veit Medick Very practical problems. You first have to get to know the Union, there are now meetings with Kramp-Karrenbauer, and I also believe in Merkel's calendar. You have already phoned. But there is still no basis of trust somehow there. They do not know each other at all. And that is also quite funny or quite interesting to observe that so someone who comes in completely new, but also first have to take care of the very normal things that everyone else has to take care of.
[00:18:43] Matthias Kirsch It comes from the Union that they would like to meet before Christmas with the new SPD leadership. With which position are Norbert Walter-Borjans and Saskia Esken now entering such talks? Do they have something in their hands where they can say: Dear Union, that and that and we would like that.
[00:19:02] Christoph Hickmann You have decided certain demands at the congress. However, they are formulated in a sufficiently open manner and - as I have already said - it also says in this decision: In the end, the board will decide on it. I would doubt now that you go in there before Christmas with harsh words and the announcement, because we must now come to something as quickly as possible, come to conclusions, come to agreements. I would guess that a quick, spontaneous meeting is about getting to know each other, looking, what's even conceivable, maybe setting the framework, how each side sees it? How far could you go? Could you even take steps together? It can not really be much more concrete in my opinion. Also, because the two actually still lack the know-how and the corresponding background of people who have to prepare so well then expertly.
[00:19:57] Veit Medick At the same time, they are of course totally under pressure, because somehow they have to deliver something in the next few weeks and months. Because: They can not compete with the mantra "We definitely want to renegotiate the coalition agreement" - that's not how they formulate it in the meantime - but they have three, four points, among other things, the climate or the investments, Question of investment, made it clear that they already want a repositioning. And if they go out without result, that looks really bad. You can not begin to say that we want to do everything differently and in the end, just as politics as Olaf Scholz did it. That would be a problem.
[00:20:32] Matthias Kirsch I also looked at a few other reactions to this party congress. Since I noticed a few statements especially, and come mainly from the CDU corner - Friedrich Merz for example. He said:
[00:20:43] Friedrich Merz (CDU) When this big social democratic people's party turns into a self-help group Kevin Kühnert, then we have to ask ourselves the question: how long can that still be good?
[00:20:54] Matthias Kirsch Or Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer, who said in the morning magazine on ZDF:
[00:20:58] Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer We focus on dedicating ourselves to the paperwork. We are not a therapy facility for the respective coalition government parties. And that is why the coalition agreement and everything that is now to be negotiated in the conciliation procedure for the climate package is being negotiated. But that has nothing to do with the SPD party congress.
[00:21:21] Matthias Kirsch The Union does not necessarily make the impression that it really wants to have any future with the SPD. How is that, Veit?
[00:21:29] Veit Medick Yes, that's right. I believe that, in a sense, is also based on reciprocity. Nevertheless, of course, they have signed a coalition agreement that will go until 2021. And the Union has always made it clear that it feels bound by this coalition agreement. My impression and my guess is also that Mrs. Kramp-Karrenbauer and also Mrs. Merkel have little interest in having this coalition fail. Quite simply with a view to their own situation. Merkel would be rid of her chancellorship then. Kramp-Karrenbauer would go into a very precarious operation, possibly as a chancellor candidate, but in a situation in which the Greens are very, very strong, in which there is no guarantee that the Union will ever get the Chancellery again. A completely confusing party landscape in which anything can happen. Since 1948 - I believe - the first time that there is no incumbent during a federal election. So a very exciting matter, but also more unpredictable. Which is why I believe that in the end, of course, the Union will not let talks fail in any case. But also on individual corrections, for example in the climate package - I would not be surprised if there would certainly happen again a certain repositioning in this coalition.
[00:22:42] Christoph Hickmann That's one thing, the other is: The Union also has other signals, for example from Armin Laschet. What we like to lose sight of here, despite all the public concentration on the SPD, is that there is also a lot going on in the Union, that there is still no rudely undercurrent, even not really fought, fight for the Chancellor candidate lurks. And, of course, if someone like Friedrich Merz, who is not involved in this coalition at all and therefore does not feel bound by any discipline, makes such remarks, then that is always, of course, to address certain parts of the party, to say: Me I'm still there. And you always have to think about the motive. What does each actor promise - Merz is there, Kramp-Karrenbauer is another, Armin Laschet is someone too - what do they expect from a date of possible new elections regarding their own chances to run for office? For that reason I would not like to overvalue such statements, which are coming immediately after the party congress.
[00:23:43] Matthias Kirsch Let's take a step back to the beginning. We talked about the motto "into the new time". Saskia Esken, who said - that was before she was confirmed by the party congress - said in late 2020, the SPD would like to again be at 30 percent in the polls. Such statements of the new party leader - is not that a bit remote from reality?
[00:24:08] Veit Medick Yeah, with the conventional goggles I would say, completely gaga. How can you? That's about as if you say the BER [new Berlin Airport] opens at the end of February next year - you never know that. This is totally risky, because such a target to sit down - especially in such a fragile situation, as the SPD is right now. But on the other hand, I would say, yes, my God, they must somehow have a certain ambition. And maybe there has also been a shift in the perception of politics, so that things will be forgiven that were once thought to be a reason for resignation.
[00:24:44] Christoph Hickmann I would like to remind you of the example of Martin Schulz. In this respect, of course, bad example when it went wrong in the end. But that this bearded man from Brussels, that would sometimes come in the survey position that people would say: Okay, it could happen that this man replaces Merkel, that would have thought no one. Say: There seems to be a potential. This has kissed Schulz, at least for a short time, kissed, lifted. Then it went down. But I would say: Yes, 30 percent is of course a bold statement. But maybe Martin Schulz would answer: Hey, why not?
[00:25:19] Matthias Kirsch Thank you very much ! And depending on how it ends, we then talk to each other after the talks between the SPD and the Union. Thanks a lot!That was votes, the policy podcast from SPIEGEL. The next episode of Stimmenfang you hear as always from next Thursday on mirror.de, Spotify and in all other podcast apps. If you would like to send us feedback, just write an e-mail to Stimmfang@spiegel.de or use our voice mailbox on 040 380 80 400. You can also send us a WhatsApp number to the same number, ie 040 380 80 400. Send Message. This episode was produced by Yasemin Yüksel and me, Matthias Kirsch. Thank you for your support to Philipp Fackler, Carolin Katschak, Johannes Kückens, Wiebke Rasmussen, Charlotte Schönberger, Matthias Streitz, Sebastian Spallek and Philipp Wittrock. The vocal music comes as always from Davide Russo.
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