China is his homeland of the heart. He is passionate about its history and traditions. Former curator of the Guimet National Museum of Asian Arts in Paris, responsible in 2010 for the French pavilion at the Shanghai World Expo, José Frèches, 69, has devoted several novels and a love dictionary to this country. He takes a clear and distant view of how the Chinese government and citizens are coping with this coronavirus pandemic.
Were the Chinese extremely effective, able to contain the epidemic in a few weeks, to limit the number of deaths ... Or did they hide things, lied about the figures and downplayed what was going on?
JOSÉ FRÈCHES. There was undoubtedly a delay in ignition in the recognition of the reality of the Covid-19 epidemic, and especially of its gravity, on the part of the local authorities in Wuhan and of the central government. The quicker the necessary measures are taken, the more effective they are. That being said, this reproach can be addressed to all the governments of the planet, as soon as the unthinkable occurs. As for the figure of just under 5,000 victims in China, it is hard to believe. If it is true - what we must obviously wish! -, this would mean that the drastic containment measures decreed by the authorities have been extremely effective.
Was it also a question of honor for the Chinese? Was it inconceivable to "lose face in the eyes of the world" and to recognize that this pandemic came from their home?
Surely there was a bit of that, at least in the early days of January. Admitting that, in one of the “megalopolis showcases” of the country, there was a market where the elementary rules of hygiene were not respected is not easy thing, when one is called Xi Jinping and that the we want to present to the world the image of a China turned towards the future. But it also shows that certain millennial traditions continue to persist in 21st century China.
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Where does this tradition, barbaric in our eyes, come from rubbing shoulders with animals living on the markets, and even eating wild species?
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In the Taoist tradition, eating is also healing. For a Taoist, the "vital breath" (the "Qi") is common to all living beings. If you want to stay healthy and live long, you have to "feed" this vital principle. Besides, this way of thinking is not specific to China. Witness the consumption of bushmeat in Africa or Borneo ... We feast on oysters ourselves.
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Is it easier in China than elsewhere to enforce a discipline such as that required by confinement, when the collective always prevails over individualism? It's very Confucian…
The societies imbued with the thinking of the philosopher Confucius (China, Taiwan, Korea, Japan) are based on the primacy of the collective over the individual, it is true. Social control is omnipresent. The big question facing these countries is the acceptance of this straitjacket by the younger strata of the population. But as they are all aging societies, it is likely that they will remain all the more Confucian as we have entered an era where the collective will impose itself more and more, global warming and episodes like Covid-19 oblige. In this respect, the big question - of an almost ontological order - is that of the compatibility between the Western way of life, based on individualism, and the number of inhabitants on Earth. We will soon be 8 billion!
That is why there is no debate there on “tracking” to monitor the progression of the epidemic…
No more in China than in South Korea, Taiwan or Japan, countries riddled with facial recognition cameras, without this posing the slightest problem to the vast majority of people.
Or is it simply because it is an undemocratic country?
South Korea, as far as I know, is what we call a democracy. Just like Japan and Taiwan, where those who do not respect confinement are specifically denounced in the media.
Are there questions about the political regime there? How was the crisis managed?
In China as elsewhere, there is a demand for protection from the population. When Li Wenliang - the admirable young doctor who launched the coronavirus alert - died, Chinese social networks were inundated with tributes to his memory, which, in counterpoint, was virulent criticism of the central government. for its lack of responsiveness and transparency. I imagine that, for a few days, roughly from January 25 to February 15, the seven members of the Standing Committee of the Communist Party (the holy of holies, where everything is decided) must have, as they say, "hot on the buttocks " The example of Ai Fen, the emergency chief of the Wuhan Central Hospital, who had warned Dr. Li Wenliang of the emergence of this virus, is quite telling. She disappeared from radar after an interview with a magazine, but it seems that she finally returned to her post ... Like what, social networks can be good. In the days of imperial China, major natural disasters (floods, famines and earthquakes) were interpreted as a sign that the Emperor had lost the "mandate of heaven", that is to say, its legitimacy. Several of these phenomena brought about changes in the dynasty.
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Have any things changed since the appearance of the coronavirus?
The Chinese are like us: they have no desire to catch this damn virus. Decrees have appeared prohibiting the consumption of dog and cat meat (that of wild animals was already prohibited). The population has become aware of the need to develop city medicine; people go to restaurants less while they love it. Times are tough for the millions of people who have lost their jobs, especially "migrants", forced to return to the countryside. Mass unemployment is a huge challenge for the Chinese government, as it is for all Western governments.
Are the Chinese worried about what could happen? Loss of international markets?
The feeling that "tomorrow will necessarily be better than today", which is the main engine of economic growth, has been taken seriously. This has already been the case in the West for many years. This will lead the Chinese, especially those of the wealthy classes, to question their way of life, the consumer society in which they bathe and the alienation which results from it. And I have no doubt that the Communist Party will take the opportunity to put forward the ideological principles which presided over its foundation.
Do you think that China will emerge weakened from this crisis or, on the contrary, strengthened?
The power of a State being analyzed in relation to the weakness of the others, it seems obvious to me that it will come out reinforced. A country sensitive to "watchwords", long-term planning, a state-party always having the last word, a population whose threshold of acceptance of social constraint is very high: all this is not useless to deal with disasters.
How do the Chinese project themselves in the coming years? How do they see Europe, but also the rest of the world?
We must distinguish the Chinese from their state. There, as here, people cultivate private happiness and dream of a good future for their children. Their country sells them a China that puts the United States, the "great enemy," on the post, Donald Trump's behavior only reinforcing this anti-American sentiment. As for Europe, the Chinese perceive it more as a large market than as a power in its own right. What they are not entirely wrong about.
And how do you envisage Franco-Chinese relations in the coming weeks? The Chinese ambassador to France did not spare his criticisms of our country ...
General de Gaulle was the first leader of a western country to recognize the Beijing regime, in January 1964, these are things that cannot be forgotten. On the other hand, the Chinese are tense when they are told to teach them about human rights. Nicolas Sarkozy learned it the hard way, in 2008. They are astonished that their "new silk routes" are presented as their Trojan horse, the reality being much more complex than that. In the 19th century, people in Europe already spoke of "yellow peril". Europeans should welcome the fact that China has become one of the apostles of multilateralism. As for the Chinese ambassador to France - whom I have not met -, he seems to have had (or allowed to be held) very little diplomatic remarks, not to say light enough. It would be interesting to know whether or not it acted as a "service ordered".
Do you think we are more wary of China than ever? Did we realize our addiction?
We would like this terrible test of the Covid-19 to lead to less distrust between peoples, but I do not have too many illusions, given the general context and the temptation of "every man for himself" generated by the great economic depressions. As for our dependence on China, it results from the disheveled globalization in which we have allowed ourselves to be drawn, by systematically favoring the consumer over the producer. In terms of our health, but also our food, we naively rely on the market. However, before treating yourself, you must eat. It took Covid-19 for us to rediscover the virtues of a planning and protecting state for the population, as well as the importance of the "commons", which belongs to everyone, because the survival of humanity in depends. Until two months ago, what had we done, in the face of the shortage of certain essential drugs - a phenomenon that has affected an increasing number of patients for several years? Nothing ... apart from asking, very politely, the multinational pharmaceutical companies to supply the French market! From now on, necessity will have to make law.