Russian security officers in front of the clinic in Omsk, Siberia, where Alexej Navalny was initially treated before he was flown to the Charité in Berlin
Photo: Evgeniy Sofiychuk / APSPIEGEL: Minister Luik, the whole world is wondering who is responsible for the poisoning of Alexei Navalny. What are your findings?
Luik: It is obvious to me that the Kremlin is behind the poisoning.
SPIEGEL: What makes you so sure?
Luik: From the experience of how the Russian system works, I can say with certainty that decisions of such importance are not made by governors or lower officials. Navalny was one of the leaders of the opposition. His poisoning must have been ordered or approved from the very top.
SPIEGEL: How should the European Union react?
Luik: The EU should clearly condemn the act of the Russian government and demand an independent investigation. In recent years we have seen similar incidents over and over again, and they all follow the same pattern. The poisoning of Sergej Skripal, for example, or the murder in the Tiergarten in Berlin. These cases show that Russia is unlikely to support an independent investigation. However, I firmly believe that the truth will come out in the end. Be it through an investigation or through the media putting the puzzle together.
SPIEGEL: The EU is in a dilemma. On the one hand there are already sanctions against Russia, on the other hand you need the country as a partner.
To person
Jüri Luik was born in Tallinn in 1966. Estonia was then a Soviet republic. Luik studied journalism in Tartu until 1989. After his country gained independence, he entered the diplomatic service. He became ambassador to the USA, Canada, Mexico, Russia and NATO. He also belonged to different governments. He has been Minister of Defense since 2017.
Photo:LEHTIKUVA / REUTERS
Luik: The big question behind this is what we actually need Russia for. It is often said that we need Russia, but that does not mean that Russia would in any way help us constructively. For example, let's look at the conflicts in Libya and Syria or the annexation of Crimea: Russia is never part of a solution there, but always part of the problem. Nevertheless, we should of course keep diplomatic channels open.
SPIEGEL: Does that also apply to Belarus?
Luik: Russia has great influence on the Belarusian ruler Alexander Lukashenko. In his most recent interview, President Putin made clear his support and willingness to send troops. The Kremlin helped bring the demonstrations under control. Lukashenko's tactics have changed: first he tried to suppress the protests on a massive scale, but now he is mainly targeting the leaders of the counter-movement. We are familiar with such a strategy from Russia. The young people who take to the streets in Belarus have a strong European orientation. That's great. They speak perfect English, they have internalized the thoughts of the western community. Putin sees it as a threat that the people of Belarus want to create a liberal society based on the Western model.
SPIEGEL: Do you think the sanctions currently being discussed in the EU against 20 individuals in Belarus are sufficient? Should also apply to Lukashenko?
Luik: The current list is a good first step, but the list could be longer. I believe that, depending on the situation in Belarus, we will add more people to it. Lukashenko is ultimately responsible for the violence, repression and election fraud, and in our opinion he should also be on the EU sanctions list.
SPIEGEL: As a Baltic state, do you feel that you are sufficiently supported by NATO?
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Luik: From the point of view of a defense minister, more can of course always be done. But I am satisfied with the military presence in the Baltic countries. The fact that allies have sent troops to the Baltic states shows that they have the security of NATO as a whole in view. Germany has also taken on an important role in protecting the Baltic region. German troops are stationed in Lithuania and on Monday Federal Air Force fighter jets will arrive in Estonia to monitor the airspace and observe Russian flight movements. But the political support of NATO allies is also important. We are very grateful for this.
SPIEGEL: Germany spends less than two percent of its gross domestic product on defense, even though that is a goal of NATO. Should Germany do more?
Luik: Yes, but not only in Germany. There are also other states that are not spending enough. It is important that we have a reliable defense. I have just come from the meeting of EU defense ministers. Many talk about the EU should take on more responsibility. I have told my colleagues that if you want to enable the EU to do more, then we have to invest more because Europe currently has significant capability gaps. For example, Europeans rely on the United States and the United Kingdom for tactical in-flight refueling.
SPIEGEL: The German government takes the view that more European cooperation could save money.
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Luik: I disagree to a certain extent. Unfortunately, some European armed forces lack strength because they have been underfunded for years. If you put those together, you will still have a weak defense - especially now that the UK has left the EU. European defense cooperation is not the magic solution for saving military spending. In order to meet the demands of the EU, we would actually have to spend a lot more money. Every member of NATO should be committed to transatlantic relations and meet the two percent target. In view of the Corona and falling gross domestic product, I would even be in favor of not orienting ourselves to percentages, but to absolute numbers.
SPIEGEL: Are you happy that the US is planning sanctions against the planned German-Russian Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline?
Luik: I hope that Germany and the USA can find a solution together. I wouldn't be disappointed if Nord Stream 2 fails. Estonia has always been critical of Nord Stream 2. The project has no economic foundation. It is a political project to avoid Ukraine as a transit route. There are already enough ways in which gas comes to Western Europe. It is not a good thing that there is tension between two of our important allies. The security of Estonia depends on the USA and Germany. Therefore, both partners have to get along with each other. The unity of the Western allies is the best guarantee of security that small countries on the border with Russia can hope for.