Katarina Barley: "Orbán has only one goal - to secure its power"

Icon: enlarge

Katarina Barley: "You can discuss anything, but not basic values"

Photo: Kay Nietfeld / picture alliance / dpa

Prime Minister Viktor Orbán has been converting Hungary into an autocracy for years, under the gaze of the other EU member states.

But now at least part of Europe wants to stop this development - and if necessary, cut EU funds for those who violate the rule of law.

There is currently a struggle in Brussels as to how binding this so-called rule of law mechanism should be.

If Orbán prevails, as it currently looks like, the regulation could largely remain without consequences.

Above all, the European Parliament holds against it.

A debate has emerged that could even delay the adoption of the EU budget.

To person

Katarina Barley, born in 1968, is Vice-President of the European Parliament.

The social democrat was previously the German Minister of Justice.

Barley studied law and worked as a lawyer and judge.

SPIEGEL:

Ms. Barley, how would you describe the state of the rule of law in Hungary?

Katarina Barley:

Viktor Orbán has been working on dismantling the rule of law bit by bit for ten years.

Unfortunately, he has come a long way.

His party friends in the conservative European People's Party around the CDU and CSU watched without taking any action.

Orbán curtails the freedom of the media, but now also the independence of the judiciary.

He silences critical MPs and cultural workers.

Nobel laureate Imre Kertész was removed from school curricula and replaced by the teaching of a nationalist convicted of a war criminal.

SPIEGEL:

The EU has long been thinking about how to put a stop to Orbán.

Now there is a proposal for a so-called rule of law mechanism.

The Commission should be able to cancel EU funds from member states if deficits are identified.

The proposal is a compromise.

It was developed by the German government, which currently holds the Council Presidency.

You are critical of the proposal.

Why?

Barley:

The Council's proposal is too toothless.

Firstly, the EU Commission could only cut EU funds from countries like Hungary or Poland if the rule of law violations were to the detriment of the EU budget.

So if the justice system is rebuilt, it would have no consequences.

Second, sanctions should originally only be prevented by a qualified majority in the Council.

According to the new proposal, however, a qualified majority is required to pass sanctions.

Thirdly, states could delay the sanctions by letting the heads of state and government discuss them again.

SPIEGEL: In

your opinion, the mechanism would have no effect whatsoever?

Barley:

You could at least take action against the blatant corruption in Hungary or Bulgaria, for example.

But not against many other shortcomings.

SPIEGEL

: What form of corruption do you mean exactly?

"Citizens are no longer willing to pour their tax money into Orbán's corrupt pockets."

Katarina Barley

Barley:

There are cases in which EU funds are given out to confidants of the government with questionable tenders.

In Hungary, for example, a multi-million dollar order for street lights that went to Orbán's son-in-law.

That harms the population in the affected countries the most, because the money does not reach the recipients for whom it is intended.

The EU anti-fraud office investigates such misconduct, but ultimately the responsibility lies with the national authorities, which, especially in the case of Hungary, let the investigation go to waste.

It is not without reason that Hungary refused to join the new European public prosecutor's office, which will in future be able to prosecute such cases itself.

SPIEGEL:

The EU Parliament is now threatening to block the budget in order to enforce an effective rule of law mechanism.

Do you really believe that Parliament can maintain this position?

Barley:

The four big groups, including the Conservatives, have made it clear that they will not accept a toothless rule of law mechanism.

Whether we are successful also depends on the public impression that prevails.

If the EU Parliament is now a spoilsport, torpedoing an already concluded compromise, it will be difficult.

But that's not how it is.

We cannot answer for the delay; we tabled a proposal a long time ago to tie EU funds to fundamental values.

Time pressure is the Council's tactic.

He is supposed to force parliament to give in.

SPIEGEL:

If the budget is not passed, the corona aid of 750 billion will not be paid either.

Countries like Spain and Italy in particular need the money.

Icon: enlarge

"Ice cold strategist": Viktor Orbán at the EU summit in Brussels

Photo: Olivier Matthys / POOL / EPA-EFE / Shutterstock

Barley:

Orbán would also lose seven billion euros if he blocked the negotiations.

We now have a lever, then no more, because then the EU budget has been decided for another seven years.

My Spanish colleagues understand that too.

If we don't do it now, the EU would be seriously damaged.

Otherwise, citizens in traditionally EU-friendly countries will also lose faith in the European project.

They are no longer willing to pour their tax money into Orbán's corrupt pockets.

They don't want to fund governments that trample on our fundamental values.

"You can discuss anything, but not basic values."

Katarina Barley

SPIEGEL:

The negotiations are turning into a "game of chicken".

Whoever gives in first loses.

Barley:

Exactly, we're threatening to disagree with the budget.

And Orbán is threatening not to agree, because the current proposal goes too far for him.

The important thing is that the decision of the Council is not the decision of the EU.

The council is always a bit like the bazaar.

It's a give and take.

This gives a state like Hungary the opportunity to blackmail other states.

That is why Orbán is trying to keep everything that affects the rule of law mechanism in the Council.

Only there can he play this advantage.

However, the rule of law must not become a matter of negotiation.

You can discuss anything, but not basic values.

Our values ​​are universal and enshrined in the EU treaties.

They are only interpreted by the European Court of Justice.

SPIEGEL:

The German government, of all people, watered down the proposal on the rule of law mechanism in the Council in order to enable a compromise.

The SPD is part of the federal government, why didn't it cry out beforehand?

Barley:

Germany holds the Council Presidency and has to ensure that there is a compromise there.

I know many of the people involved, such as Michael Roth, the Minister of State for Europe in the Foreign Ministry.

These are avowed constitutionalists.

The problem lies in the structure of the Council.

In the end, a head of government can always hold his breath until he gets his way to a certain extent.

That is why it is so important that we stand firm now in the EU Parliament.

SPIEGEL:

In an interview a few days ago you called for Orbán to be financially starved.

You were then attacked in Hungary and Poland.

The Hungarian government spokesman brought you close to the Nazis.

Barley:

Of course, Fidesz tries to discredit critics by all means.

Our aim is to withdraw EU funding from Orbán's corrupt system, not from the Hungarian or Polish people, on the contrary: we want the money to reach the citizens - and not Orbán and his son-in-law.

Our proposal is therefore not to cut funds, but rather to allocate them in such a way that they do not pass through Orbán's sticky hands, but reach those who are to be funded directly.

SPIEGEL:

You are not the first to be personally attacked by Orbán.

Once he created a good mood with anti-Juncker posters.

After the Vice Commission President Vera Jourová recently criticized Orbán in SPIEGEL, he demanded her resignation.

"Orbán has built a football stadium in the garden of his country house, with a heated lawn and stands."

Katarina Barley

Barley:

Orbán is an ice cold strategist, he has only one goal - to secure his own power.

He constructs enemy images abroad and wants to close the ranks behind him.

It's a very old tactic.

I don't know if it will work out in the end.

Because in this way he also draws attention to my statements and these are things that Orbán does not like to hear.

For example, that he built a football stadium in the garden of his country house with a heated lawn and stands.

And that he had a railway line laid in this village with EU money.

It cost the EU a seven-figure sum.

Or that his old school friend, a plumber, is now one of the richest men in Hungary.

SPIEGEL:

Some observers fear that after a decade of Orbán in Hungary it may be too late.

He has long since brought the media landscape under his control.

Barley:

Only the citizens themselves can reverse the current development.

In Bulgaria, people have been protesting against their corrupt government for weeks.

Orbán also suffered a heavy defeat in the last regional election.

He lost in almost all large cities, although the opposition was practically unable to campaign.

Nothing is set in stone.

In the long run, democracy will always win.

Icon: The mirror