The "Blue Chair" section: And this time, an interview with Aliza Lavie, chairman of the Herzl Center, founder of the World Zionist Organization • On the attitude of youth toward Zionism: "They are thirsty for knowledge, know where you came from and where you are going"
Dr. Aliza Lavie. Photographed at the Beit Rishonim Museum of the History of Herzliya
Photography:
Joshua Joseph
Aliza Lavie,
Chair of the Herzl Center, a founder of the World Zionist Organization,
researcher, lecturer and author. Former MK of Yesh Atid and chair of the Committee for the Advancement of Women and Gender Equality
Dr. Aliza Lavie, in the middle of the Corona crisis, we are having a conversation about Herzl and Zionism. Why is Herzl relevant to us these days?
"Herzl dreamed of establishing a Jewish state and establishing an exemplary society in it, and left us instructions for that.
Herzl emphasized that Zionism is an endless path, an eternal ideal.
Every generation and the missions it has developed - and we too, at the height of a national crisis, must continue to work to be a model society.
"Herzl spoke of a country that will be a beacon for the world, and especially now it is important to bring his character and thought back to the center of the stage to remember where we came from and what we are fighting for here."
From my impression we did not exactly become the exemplary company he dreamed of. Do you think that even today we would find Herzl optimistic, that the desire to save the people of Israel continues to burn in him?
"Certainly. Herzl is the first Jewish diplomat, he understood that in order to establish a state for Jews it is not enough to talk to Jews, you have to talk to the rulers of the world. He died when he was 44 after investing his whole life in the Zionist dream. Keep working and one day a state will be established for the Jews.
"We have established a state, and I think an exemplary society will be established here as well. Herzl trusts us that we will continue on this path. He experiences many objections. He leaves the world with great sadness, with his dream far from being fulfilled, and his opponents many. In his last letter to the Jewish people he wrote that he failed. "They listen and do as they see fit. To me, in a sense, it reminds me of the current period."
What would he say about the rifts in society, about the intensity of the argument? Already at the time he stated that "putting the Jews under one hat would be a terrible hard work, even though each of them has a head, or perhaps precisely because of it."
"Herzl gave us tools, knowledge, real capsules of hope and optimism. But this amazing sentence you mentioned embodies a long process. Israel is a young country, a country that absorbs immigration, we come from different cultures with different norms, with a different understanding of reality. There is no other country like this. , And takes time to get back together in the full sense of the word.
From a dream to a mass movement. The First Zionist Congress // Photo: GPO
"Israel is a miracle. But yes, mistakes were also made here, not maliciously, most of us learned, and a process of social healing and trust is certainly required here. Many people from different cultures came here and it created complexity, which is part of a process. "We have to be afraid of the debate itself. All we have to do is manage the debate out of mutual respect, and that is what we lack. At the same time, even today in the midst of the murky wave that befalls us, I see a lot of good."
A mine-laden bush
The rifts are, for example, regarding the essence of Zionism.
"There are places where the word Zionism is a word that is feared or embarrassed, almost a rude word, and I began to ask myself why. I quickly realized that I too had hardly read Herzl. Although I learned like everyone else the 'Jewish State', 'Altneuland', but it "It was a long time ago. I learned more from the other biographies about him. So it turns out that we are usually products of what we were told about him. When we understand this perspective, it becomes clearer why there are groups that have moved away from Herzl and Zionism."
The ultra-Orthodox, for example?
"Also, but not only. You will know that as part of the Herzl Center we have created meetings with ultra-Orthodox journalists, entrepreneurs and opinion leaders in ultra-Orthodox society who understand the meaning of knowing Herzl. Through them I became acquainted with the contents taught in the ultra-Orthodox education system about Herzl and Zionism.
"Leave the world with great sadness." Herzl, 1897 // Photo: GPO
"Our ultra-Orthodox brethren are part of Israeli society, and it is impossible to talk to them about carrying a burden before talking about Herzl and his vision. Even if they do not agree - have a conversation. I am aware of the complexity of the way Herzl was mediated, but I think the conversation should take place. "It hurts and it bothers. It is enough to look at the percentage of schools in Jerusalem that came to the Herzl Center and those that did not. We need to address the various schools, and in the Herzl Center we have developed several programs, and we also plan to train ultra-Orthodox instructors."
What emotions or mental mines does the discourse on Herzl touch on?
"Herzl was the first to translate the Zionist act into a mass movement, and he did so with charisma and his ability to imagine and dream. And I ask myself - why are they so angry with him? We should be thanked, and yes - teach him more in the education system. Some ultra-Orthodox, for example, Herzl is known as a figure who wanted to exclude the rabbis from the discourse and flee from Judaism. "Therefore, the discourse regarding his character needs to be expanded."
Love, service and contribution
Some will disagree with you regarding the study of Herzl's teaching in the education system. For many, the Zionist vision is modern Israel - the "start-up nation", technology and agriculture, the peace agreements. The same people believe that the role of Zionism ended with the establishment of the state.
"So this is a serious mistake, the Zionist vision consists of two floors. One whose construction has been completed and is the establishment of the state and ensuring its existence. The second one must work on is building an exemplary company, as mentioned. The start-up Nation is a central part of the modern Zionist vision. The exemplary society. Therefore, I hope that they will soon amend the Herzl Law (to create a state day in his memory; R.P.) that MK Hauser leads, which does exist but without a budget at its core. A nation that has no roots, no future. We must maintain the balance. Between a democratic state and a Jewish state. This is our struggle, and I tell you - there are not enough partners in the Zionist story. And it's not just the ultra-Orthodox. There are groups in Israeli society today that believe, as you said, that the Zionist story is sufficiently realized, or those who define themselves as post-Zionist. ".
The attitude of the youth towards Zionism is also changing.
"The younger generation comes from an education system that did not provide him with enough tools and content. They are thirsty for learning, for knowledge. In the 1990s, I served as the director general of the Public Council for Youth Exchange.
I met young people from Israel who, in a meeting at a synagogue in New York with a Jewish, non-religious group, did not know how to open a Siddur.
It made them ask questions.
You meet guys who come back from concentration camps and say - 'We don't know how to say Kaddish'.
People do not like to feel ignorant in their culture.
Know where you come from and where are you going.
It is part of the correction of the people, of the Zionist act.
I see, for example, the Zionist place in pre-military preparatory schools, which is huge and numerous.
They are thirsty to bring news to society, and they will. "
They conducted a survey among the preparatory students, which raised interesting data. Most of them placed at the top of their value table the significant service in the IDF or national service, and then the love of the Land of Israel and living in the Land of Israel.
"There are really amazing guys here - even though this is a sample that does not necessarily represent - ie young people who chose to be Military service because they felt they were missing something.
To some extent this is a critique of the education system and even of parents.
A chief education officer told me at the time that his starting point was that 50 percent of the soldiers had not visited Jerusalem.
These are things that we at the Herzl Center want to bring back to awareness, and we are happy to see more people coming to us for museums, for tours - both physically and online.
Students of pre-military preparatory schools // Photo: Oren Ben Hakon
As for the survey, the trainees 'responses revealed three main motifs about what Zionism is in their eyes: the love motif, for example,' to love the Land of Israel '; service and contribution, for example,' giving of ourselves for the state '; and connection to the place, expressed in statements such as' The land of the Jewish people and who deserves to live in God. "
What answers would you get regarding the question "What is Zionism?" Had the survey been conducted among a wider sample of the population? And who is a Zionist in your eyes?
"It is difficult to say. I hope and believe that the answers are the same even among wider audiences. As for who is a Zionist, I adopted Herzl's definition: 'I once called Zionism an infinite ideal, and I truly believe that even after achieving our land, the Land of Israel will not cease to be ideal. "Zionism, as I understand it, includes not only the desire for a legally guaranteed land for our unfortunate people, but also the desire for moral and spiritual perfection."
At the Herzl Center, you also produced the "Zionist Toolbox" project, selected quotations from Herzl's doctrine and the teachings of other thinkers related to Zionism. Where does Herzl meet you personally?
"On the personal side - what really surprised me was Herzl's correspondence with Judaism. We are all familiar with the famous quote in which he says regarding the separation of religion and state: 'Can our priests be ruled by us?
No! ... "But at the same time, I discovered quotes that refer to the rabbi's central role in his community, the importance of the synagogue and its placement at the center of community life and even the establishment of a temple.
"Herzl grew up in an assimilated family and his knowledge of Judaism was very partial, but he went on a long journey, and at the first Zionist Congress he said in his speech that 'Zionism is first and foremost a return to Judaism, even before it returned to the Jewish state.' This sentence moved me.
" Herzl discovered "The State of the Jews" that Pinsker wrote his book "Auto-Emancipation", noting that if he had recognized this fact - he would not have written "The State of the Jews".
Herzl also does not know what is being done in the country, for he thought that if he went to the rich Jews - Hirsch and Rothschild - and lent them money, then everything would work out.
Herzl even went to the Turkish sultan, and was thrown out.
And from these events - from the rich Jews who slam the door in his face and the sultan who throws him out - he sits and writes the 'Jewish State'.
He understands that an alternative is needed. "
Do you see touches from Herzl's spirit in everything related to the discourse on the corona? And did anything in your activity try to sharpen elements of tolerance in discourse based on Herzl's teaching?
"The corona virus is a difficult event, but the vast majority of us are more hurt by the rift in society. The corona will eventually pass, the question is how do we get out of it as a company. This is a question that needs to be worked on today. We have no other country, and I am We opened the museum long before everyone else, just after Pesach, and the public came back.
"With a zero budget and with the help of the mobilization of CEO Oded Foyer, we recruited the best lecturers, initiated educational activities that dealt with the discourse on the Zionist idea in Zum, and how to learn from Herzl to convey a message.
After all, Herzl was a playwright, he believed that what was said on stage resonated with the public.
And this is how he worked: he knew how to be photographed, how to dress - we all know his famous picture on a balcony in Basel.
Baron Rothschild // Photo: GettyImages
"When the thinker Max Nordau arrived at the first Zionist Congress in sloppy clothing, jeans and a crumpled shirt, Herzl sent him to change his clothes and said to him - Sir, we must establish a state, if you do not come back and rent you a top hat and a suit, we will not succeed. We must broadcast statehood." .
He was an Instagram anchor before us all.
"Unequivocally, he understood Instagram even then. He understood the visual. Everything we learned about shooting angles, looks - he already recognized then."
Do not stay in Egypt
In the eyes of many he is considered to be the greatest Zionist leader. In one of your conversations at the center, you compared his character to that of Ben-Gurion. What's between Herzl and Ben-Gurion?
"Both resonate with the Zionist voice. When Herzl died, Ben-Gurion was a young man in Poland. He saw Herzl as a role model. Ben-Gurion established a state, and understood Herzl's place. In August 1949, Ben-Gurion raised Herzl's bones to the State of Israel, to Mt. That he chooses to call on his name, which later becomes the lot of the nation's greats. An exciting funeral was held for him that included representatives from the entire Jewish community. Ben-Gurion really disrupts the Jewish people's commitment to Herzl. Ben-Gurion established here out of nowhere, and I have no doubt he read Herzl and studied his vision in depth.I believe that Ben-Gurion had many imaginary conversations with Herzl.
"By the way, another figure worth comparing to Herzl is Yosef. Just as Herzl asked for his bones to be raised when a state was established, so did Yosef. He knew that one day the people of Israel would come out of Egypt, and demanded that his bones not remain there. The Jew among these personalities is chilling. "
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