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cleft? Rabbi Chaim Navon: "There is a traditional religious center of gravity and secular people gather around it" | Israel today

2021-03-21T13:14:00.087Z


The Blue Chair section, and this time: Rabbi Chaim Navon • On Litzman's resignation at the height of the crisis: "I felt a slap in the face" | Israel this week - a political supplement


From the Blue Chair section, and this time: Rabbi Chaim Navon • On Litzman's resignation at the height of the crisis: "I felt a slap in the face" • On funding mikvahs and theaters: "They should have risen from funding people who use them" • On public transportation on Shabbat: From another transport? "

  • Rabbi Chaim Navon

    Photo: 

    Joshua Joseph

Rabbi Chaim Navon is 



a



47-year-old

Israeli writer and publicist

.

Teaches Talmud, Halacha and Jewish thought at Yeshivat Har Etzion, Midreshet Lindenbaum and Yaakov Herzog College

Rabbi Chaim Navon, in your new book you offer a vision of a Jewish state that is not a state of halakhah.

You write that you would like to live in the State of the Torah, but this dream lasts until the day when all the people of Israel will be partners in it.

Do you think we are approaching this day or just moving away from it?



"When I say that I am suspending the dream of a state of halakhah, I do not mean to say that I am acting deaf and secretly to advance it. I think before that the people of Israel should want to get closer to the Torah of Israel. Remember 70 years ago when they established the state, religious people and yeshivot They were a tiny and insignificant minority who seemed to be about to disappear from the world, and that of course is not what happened. But I have no ambition to force my beliefs on other people. I think and believe that one day the people of Israel will return at the pace they choose to believe in Torah and mitzvos. "Even today, most Jews in Israel want the state to be connected to their Judaism. Not a state of halakhah, but a Jewish state."



You ask in the book what is our Jewish vision for the state.

But there is no such thing as a current vision.



"At the micro level no. You can not learn from the Torah what should be the level of interest in the economy or what should be the organizational structure of the State Comptroller's Office. Any desire to produce a message from such a high resolution is foolish. What can and should be derived from the Torah is basic principles. What is a state, an administration, what is the relationship between it and its citizens.



"It should be remembered that Western political thought drew much from the Bible in its first incarnation. We did abandon the Bible and the practical Jewish political tradition of Israeli communities as a source for thinking about the state;

But Hobbes, for example, quotes the Bible in his book Whale hundreds of times, as do all the great thinkers of the 17th century.



Jewish thinking as a source of inspiration.



"More than that - scholars say that the way the State of Israel arose and survived as a democracy is a mystery. When the State of Israel was established there were very few democracies in the world, and we have a vague impression that we imported ideas from the Western world "As well as the great rabbis, they understood that we took the democratic tradition from our Jewish heritage. We should try to learn more things from it and more basics on how to build the government in our country."



Do your words show the strength of democracy in Israel?



"Jews have a tradition that even if it is not democratic in the full sense, it is proto-democratic, the basis of democracy. We are suspicious of strong leaders. For example, I do not see any scenario that someone takes a tank division and goes up to the Knesset with it, simply because they will not follow it. I think that Israeli democracy is very strong, precisely because it relies on the Jewish tradition. " 



Not to Centralization in Conversion



British researcher Eric Kaufman writes that it is only a matter of time before Israel becomes a religious state.

Are seculars supposed to take care of that? 



"Absolutely not. No religious person I know has an intention to force non-religious people to keep mitzvos by force. Both because it will create social and political destruction, and also because such an action will have no religious value - mitzvos according to halakhah need intention.  



" His opinion is to ban a secularist from smoking a cigarette or watching TV, or doing as he pleases in his home.

The discussion is solely about the nature of the public authority. "



If we are talking about the public authority, you believe that the state should not fund mikvahs or theaters.



" I

agree

with this claim.

I admit that I was very surprised when I heard that NIS 100 million had been invested in the renovation of the Habima Theater.

It seems to me a disproportionate expense.

Such a theater could have received funding from the audience that loves it.

This is how synagogues are built.

The State of Israel does not build synagogues, the vast majority of which are built from private donations from the community and generous people.



"So in a more reformed world, both mikvahs and theaters should have been funded by the people who enjoy and use them. But as long as the State of Israel uses my taxes to build theaters or football stadiums, then you will use those taxes to build mikvahs as well. This is a service I need more." .



A more charged issue is public transportation on Saturday.



"It's not entirely clear to me why. Both the religious and secular arguments are not very strong about public transportation. From the religious side, I have a hard time understanding why this is what hurts the Sabbath more than other transportation. From the secular side, I do not believe a person has the right to demand publicly funded transportation. Place and at any time. 



"In fact, it's one of the easiest things to solve.

The Gavison-Madan Convention proposed an outline that is, in my view, very reasonable, that within the framework of a comprehensive arrangement for religion and state relations in Israel, public transportation should be allowed in a more moderate, minimal manner, in essential places.

It must be in agreement. "



And what about conversion?



" The state should recognize for the purpose of the Law of Return only Orthodox conversion, which in my opinion is the continuum that is accepted by the vast majority of Jews in Israel.

In the end, most Jews in Israel, even non-religious ones, are somewhere on the Orthodox continuum.

At the same time, I see no reason why there should be a monopoly of the Chief Rabbinate here.

Some outlines of decentralization of conversion powers have been proposed, and I think that is a good idea.

That every mayor can establish a conversion court.

"Never in our history has there been a centralized authority on the subject of conversion, and I do not think it should be today." 



Earlier this month, the High Court ruled that anyone who has undergone a Reform or Conservative conversion in Israel will be recognized as a Jew for the purpose of the Law of Return. Will the High Court's decision also resonate on the halakhic level?

Does it herald the beginning of a new discourse on religion and state?



"The ruling will certainly not affect the law and will not create any new discourse. I also do not think that this move endangers the Jewish majority in the country. The current wording of the grandson section of the Law of Return harms the Jewish majority much more, "It is inevitable to enshrine in legislation the stipulation that the Law of Return only recognizes Orthodox conversion, but does not entrust the Chief Rabbinate with a monopoly on such conversion."



In your doctrine, there is also no proper reason for the issue of kashrut to be under a government monopoly.



"The chief rabbinate must be a regulator, oversee associations or non-profit organizations that will provide kosher supervision services.

She will check that they are living up to their promises and the scale they are declaring.

There should be a number of kosher suppliers competing with each other, and in practice this is something that happens.

And as you said, there is no reason for the government to have a legal monopoly on kosher supervision, I do not see anyone in the religious field benefiting from it. "



In Europe there are many arrangements for marriages, for example. To the best of my knowledge there are no liberal democracies where this ceremony must go through one route. Is it reasonable in your eyes?



"In the book I note that in my opinion, the prescription for a Jewish state is that the state should not do anything, but what it does or regulates - that it should do in a Jewish way.

According to this register, we will ostensibly come to the conclusion that the state has the right to restrict Jewish marriage, just as it restricts marriage age, prohibits polygamy and more.

Still, from a practical point of view, I think that as part of a comprehensive series of religious-state relations, civil marriage should be allowed here as well.



"We pay a very heavy price for the chief rabbinate's monopoly on marriage and I do not see that we benefit from it. Studies consistently show that most Israelis say they would like a civil marriage in Israel, but also say they themselves would like to marry a rabbi. We see this very much. Areas: Wherever people have the freedom to choose - they ultimately choose in the direction of the traditional Israeli heritage. "



"Elections not on religion and state"



In the book you write that the demand for the separation of religion from the state is not fair.

Explain.



"First of all, contrary to popular propaganda, the separation of religion and state is a rare model in the world. It is practiced in France and the United States, and also there, at least in the United States, not fully. In many European countries religion is mentioned in the constitution. 



" In Israel, our heritage is historically It is religious: we have no other scriptures besides the religious scriptures, we have no other historical customs, and we have no other historical law.

I believe, has to limit the discussion to the realm of privatization of religious services, an area where there is much to do, and stay away from the slogan of separation of church and state, which is not relevant to almost any country in the world, and certainly not us. "



Countries not reaching their religion from the public sphere, because the state's position On the private interests of many individuals will not last.



"No one will be willing to fight for a country that is only a treaty for the strengthening of private interests.

In the book I try to develop the concept of the covenant - that is, the state is a kind of deep agreement, which includes a common historical consciousness.

And so countries are built.

Countries have dreams, memories, hopes - and that's what holds their citizens together.

Religious heritage and religious sources are part of these memories, of our common language. "



What about the upcoming elections? Are they likely to be about religion and state?



" Elections are never about religion and state, because we always focus on the urgent and not important.

By the way, I do not think that religious and state election quarrels were helpful.

Elections emphasize the differentiator rather than the common denominator.

I hope that after the election we can free up some time and mental energy and try to bridge the gaps in these important areas. "In the 



last closure, the political issue arose even more about the ultra-Orthodox. 



" Regarding the ultra-Orthodox public, I hope he and his representatives in the Knesset understand that they need to be corrected. The Koruna has severely damaged the fabric of relations between the ultra-Orthodox and other groups in Israel.

We cannot afford to give up this connection and give up the ultra-Orthodox public, because demographically they are the future of the State of Israel.

This is a community with many degrees will have to learn how to function more smoothly with other groups in the State of Israel, and I hope that they will learn it quickly - otherwise we will all pay for tuition is very high. "



What did you think of the resignation of Jacob Litzmann at the height of the crisis corona?



" As a citizen I felt a slap cheek.

After all, a kosher team is elected to lead and manage - especially in times of crisis.

And here comes a time when you are needed, and you say: It's big on me.

When it comes to a national decision he moves aside and returns to his sectoral affairs.

It is impossible for a large and influential public like the ultra-Orthodox public not to take national responsibility.

Eventually they will have to be much more involved, take on more of the national burden, and that has implications as well.

This is a necessary process and the sooner it is done, the better for all of us. "



Are we really in the most divided period in the history of the State of Israel?



" It is always said.

Ever since I was a child, every period has been said to be the most divided.

The Corona really added a new kind of pressure to this whole system.

But when I look again a little from above in the macro, we are not in a particularly divided period.

There were much more difficult years in terms of the internal division in Israel - the assassination of Rabin, the days of the severe terrorist attacks in Oslo, the disengagement.

All in all, a traditional center of gravity has been created in Israel today, and both religious and secular people gather around it, and it softens the conflicts around this axis. "



Nowadays, how can the State of Israel connect to its roots, become more Jewish?



" .

But my answer does not focus only on matters that are commonly classified as religious.

The state of Israel today will be more Jewish if it gives, for example, more powers to local authorities.

In the Corona period it is the governmental system that functions best and not just - it is more related to people and their natural fabric of life.



Educational variety and educational decentralization are also required.

Education for me is the most urgent change.

We have tremendous potential, of a people with the oldest educational tradition in the world.

Our educational achievements today are not bad, but neither are they satisfying.

The fact that our education system is so centralized plays a large part in our mediocre achievements.

A variety of schools and educational institutions should be enabled, giving more responsibility to parents, teachers and local principals.

This is the most urgent change. "For 



suggestions and comments: Ranp@israelhayom.co.il

Source: israelhayom

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