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Opponents Laschet, Söder
Photo: POOL / REUTERS
SPIEGEL
: Mr. Nowak, as a consultant you specialize in organizational and management issues.
The past few days have been dominated by leadership issues.
The Greens introduced anti-authoritarianism into politics, and now they have decided the K question from the top in a disciplined process.
The Union, in turn, chose a rather chaotic - let's say anti-authoritarian - process.
How do you judge that?
Nowak
: They come from different shores, the Greens have passed their chaotic pioneering phase and have gone through a phase of consolidation that favors such hierarchical decisions.
The Union, on the other hand, believes it needs to introduce more participatory elements.
But such a process must also fit the culture of an organization.
The Greens have evidently succeeded in making this cultural change better than the Union.
To person
Enlarge picturePhoto: private
Claus Nowak
, 71, is an author and honorary professor for personnel and organizational development at the University of Hamburg.
In his career as a coach and consultant for companies, he worked for both Daimler AG and Pro Familia.
His new book "Conflict Landscapes - Recognizing, Analyzing and Solving Conflicts in Organizations" was recently published by Limmer-Verlag.
SPIEGEL
: But since when has a process in which the top decides alone fits in with the Greens?
Nowak
: It depends on what impression the audience has in the end.
The party has trusted its two leaders that they can do it among themselves.
That didn't work for the Union.
The Union has lost its credibility and the Greens gained it.
In the past, the Greens made mistakes similar to those made by the Union now.
They fought internal battles in public and received receipts for them from the electorate.
If an organization is primarily concerned with itself - without solving problems, i.e. fulfilling its function - people will turn away.
SPIEGEL
: In the past few days, the main actors have drawn everyone's attention.
But do you say that the party itself makes the decisive impression?
Nowak
: Credibility has two dimensions: on the one hand, it is about the people who lead the organization, and on the other, it is also about the organization as a whole.
And if the leadership not only fails to solve the problems, but also enriches itself with them, as some elected officials have done, then that is the credibility meltdown.
And then the wishes of the grassroots were now also irritated by the fact that the maker at the top, the savior, so to speak, did not emerge victorious from a disturbing process - then I really get curious about what will come out of the elections for the party.
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SPIEGEL
: Now there are conflicts in every organization.
And they also have to be carried out.
Nowak
: Right, but that requires a regulated process that is accepted by everyone. Conflicts must have a place or a forum where they can be resolved. A fixed committee or a round table. Otherwise, the conflicts float around freely in the organization - as happened with the Union. And at some point the spiral turns in a circle and no longer discursively towards a solution. And then a decision has to be made. In organizations, this is a matter of leadership, which does not just mean individuals. I know companies where conflicts are constantly being fought at the lower levels that are not their own, but are based on the fact that the people who could and should resolve these conflicts, i.e. the leaders, do not.I call this abuse of power by omission. The psychiatrist Fritz Simon sums it up as follows: Conflicts are decisions that have not been made. And that applies to all areas of life.
SPIEGEL
: Does this analysis also apply to the Chancellor?
She has always emphasized that it is not up to her to arrange the succession.
Should she still have to intervene now?
Nowak
: Yes.
Merkel is still powerful.
By staying out of it, a vacuum was created.
All sorts of people and groups are now pushing into this power vacuum.
It's part of the current cacophony.
You didn't have to appoint the successor, but you could - and should - organize and moderate a decision-making process.
She would have been brilliantly suited for this: neutral, recognized, competent and without any further claim to power.
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Green Baerbock, Habeck
Photo: ANNEGRET HILSE / REUTERS
SPIEGEL
: You talk about credibility. If that's the deciding factor, why is Söder the popular? He has undergone adventurous political U-turns.
Nowak
: Credibility is not an absolute measured value, but lies in the perspective of the beholder. It is assigned to another person or given as a gift. It is not so much what the person really is, but what is projected into them. Söder is considered a doer - whether it's a pandemic or climate protection. He is trusted to "tackle it". And in times of crisis there is a need for strong leaders at the top. And the greater the uncertainty, the stronger people's longing for orientation. Armin Laschet can still say the right things - if he doesn't come across as credible, it won't work. As is well known, credibility increases the willingness to follow suit.
»Many people fear personal responsibility.
In times of crisis, the need for leading figures arises. "
SPIEGEL
: So Saxony-Anhalt's Prime Minister Reiner Haseloff was right when he said a few days ago that it was about maintaining power, not character?
Nowak
: That was a spontaneous moment of truth indeed. It is primarily a question of who is most likely to meet the expectations of the majority and thus secure power. If it is important to me to make a living, to consume and to know where to go, then unfortunately it often does not matter whether the man or woman at the top has behaved dictatorially and lied a few times. Here's a completely different example: I used to work as a teacher, and there were colleagues who were authoritarian, and the students still loved them because their colleagues were predictable. They provided orientation, you knew what you were allowed to do and what not. I myself was often horrified because these teachers taught obedience and not self-responsibility. But it seems to methat many people fear rather than long for personal responsibility.
SPIEGEL
: If the longing for a tendency towards authoritarian or populist leadership arises especially in moments of crisis, then a lot can change in the direction of the general election.
Should the vast majority of the population be vaccinated in September, so the crisis is over, could Armin Laschet have good chances again?
Nowak
: All in all, too much credibility porcelain has been smashed for that.
It's like trust.
It is lost quickly and it takes a long time to rebuild.
Laschet may be the winner, but he will have problems getting people to follow him.
“Baerbock embodies an unencumbered departure.
Many people just want something different and new. "
SPIEGEL
: How does Annalena Baerbock's credibility come about if she has no government experience whatsoever?
Nowak
: There is a not inconsiderable part of the population who longs for a new departure, for a phase of perceived political stagnation.
That too is a symptom of the crisis.
Robert Habeck, with his experience in government, was at a disadvantage here.
He was almost considered part of the establishment.
Baerbock embodies an unencumbered departure - also through her youthfulness, her lively gesture - more authentic than him.
Many people just want something different and new.
Such effects also exist in other countries, and unfortunately there are some daunting examples among them.
SPIEGEL
: In politics, flights of highs never last long.
Nowak
: I'm also curious to see how long things will go well for the Greens, how long they will remain loyal to each other.
Ultimately, we are dealing with very different wings with the Greens.
Success first creates unity, because everyone likes to work in a successful team.
But what if the success does not turn out as desired?
The Greens are too willing to deal with conflict to be able to endure long dry spells.
SPIEGEL
: If Baerbock's current success can be explained by the fact that it is not seen as part of the system, are the poor poll results for the SPD chancellor candidate Olaf Scholz due to the fact that he is perceived as part of the system?
Nowak
: Not only.
Here I see above all reasons in the credibility crisis of the SPD as an organization: What kind of impression does it make on the outside when Mr Scholz is crackingly defeated in the fight for party leadership and is then lifted up as a candidate for chancellor?
In addition, Scholz lost a lot of credibility beforehand.
Anyone who as mayor leaves his city to an angry mob at the G20 summit in 2017 without apologizing in any form and then going to Berlin as a minister in a grand coalition that is highly unpopular with his own grassroots will take a long time to regain credibility.
SPIEGEL
: An apology after the nights of the Hamburg riot would have been a decisive means of regaining credibility?
Nowak
: Yes, credibility also comes from being able to admit mistakes.
SPIEGEL
: If it is so much about projections, about the wishes of the voters, but the wishes are different in a diverse society, would it be the best model to share power, as the Grünenspitze has done so far?
Two different characters form a broad range of identification?
Nowak
: Yes. It would indeed be an interesting thought to lead the Federal Chancellery as a team. Two different people who complement each other and exemplify a good model for cooperation, with mutual acceptance and reflected knowledge of their own strengths and weaknesses. It seems as if Baerbock and Habeck have already made a good start. But let's first see how Mr. Habeck digests the step back into the second row.
