Enlarge image
Russian Iran negotiator Ulyanov in Vienna: "I am cautiously optimistic"
Photo: JOE KLAMAR / AFP
Probably the most difficult negotiations in world politics are currently taking place in the five-star hotels on Vienna's Ringstrasse.
Diplomats from the USA, Iran, Russia, China, Great Britain, France and Germany are trying to save the nuclear deal that their states signed in the Austrian capital in 2015.
Through the so-called nuclear deal, Iran was supposed to limit its nuclear program to exclusively civilian purposes and to be rewarded for this with economic relief.
However, the former US President Donald Trump unilaterally terminated the agreement in 2018 - a step that his successor Joe Biden wants to reverse.
Enlarge image
Negotiation location Grand Hotel in Vienna: No direct talks between Iran and the USA yet
Photo: Florian Schroetter / AP
For this, Biden sets the condition that the Iranian side strictly adheres to all conditions of the agreement.
Tehran, in turn, is demanding that Washington lift the sanctions imposed under Trump.
Even if there have not yet been any direct talks between the warring states, some of those involved are now expressing their confidence that a successful conclusion can be reached.
Russia's negotiator is the experienced diplomat Mikhail Ulyanov.
Here he talks about the progress made in Vienna and Moscow's strategic interest in the agreement.
It is officially called the "Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action" (JCPOA).
"There is no sensible alternative to successfully concluding the negotiations."
SPIEGEL:
Ambassador Ulyanov, how optimistic are you that the Vienna talks will lead to the full restoration of the so-called nuclear deal with Iran?
Ulyanov:
I am cautiously optimistic, but I can only express my personal opinion here.
There is no sensible alternative to successfully completing the negotiations.
Because the JCPOA is of considerable importance: it makes a decisive contribution to preventing the further spread of nuclear weapons around the world, it helps to reduce tensions in the Gulf region, it alleviates the suffering of the Iranian population that is currently being caused by the economic sanctions .
SPIEGEL:
How long do you think the Vienna talks will last?
Ulyanov:
Nobody can predict that exactly.
It would be best if we concluded the negotiations by May 21, my European colleagues agree.
For two reasons: On May 22, the provisional agreement between Tehran and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), which guarantees an acceptable level of IAEA verification in Iran, ends.
In addition, a new Iranian president will be elected in June.
The candidates for this will be determined in May and the election campaign will begin.
These are the goals of the negotiators
SPIEGEL:
What obstacles that stand in the way of an agreement have already been removed in the talks?
"Our goal can only be to restore the original agreement."
Ulyanov:
A very big obstacle was practically removed at the beginning of the talks, the idea of a "nuclear deal plus".
SPIEGEL:
The German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas brought up this idea, in line with thought games in Washington: Iran should not only return to the 2015 agreement, but also restrict its missile program and reduce support for regional militias such as Hezbollah.
Ulyanov:
That was completely unrealistic and counterproductive.
An American proverb could say: you tried to hit three birds with just one stone.
After all, control of the Iranian nuclear program is very different from missile development and the issue of regional security.
At the end of the second round of talks the week before last, I had the impression that it is now perfectly clear to everyone involved: Our goal can only be to restore the original agreement.
Without any additions or omissions.
SPIEGEL:
What else have the negotiators achieved?
Ulyanov:
We now understand better what exactly is involved in lifting the sanctions and restricting the Iranian nuclear program.
We will probably end up agreeing on a single document, perhaps with a few appendices.
In any case, we see a positive trend, we are on the right track.
How Trump's Legacy Makes Negotiations Difficult
SPIEGEL:
The government of the former US President Donald Trump has imposed a barely manageable number of sanctions against Iran.
Does this legacy make negotiations difficult?
"The Iranians are not ready to speak directly to the Americans yet."
Ulyanov:
The Iranians speak of 1,500 or 1,600 sanctions.
It is really not that easy for our American colleagues to precisely identify and evaluate all of these measures.
You have submitted three different lists and have since spoken about them publicly.
The first is a green list of penalties to be lifted.
Then a red list of sanctions Washington wants to adhere to.
Finally, a yellow list of penalties to negotiate.
These lists will help the Iranians give clear answers.
SPIEGEL:
Will there be direct talks between the delegations from Tehran and Washington in the near future?
Ulyanov:
Not at this stage.
The Iranians have suffered greatly from the previous US administration's "maximum pressure" policy.
You are not ready to speak to the Americans directly yet.
It remains to be seen whether they will be willing to sit down with them at the table at a later point in time, should serious problems arise in further discussions.
But that's speculative.
SPIEGEL:
That means that the talks could be concluded successfully without a personal encounter between Iranians and Americans by then?
Ulyanov:
I think that's possible.
After a restoration of the JCPOA and as soon as the United States is a participating country again, both sides will automatically speak directly to one another because they will then meet in the regular rounds of the signatory countries.
SPIEGEL:
During the ongoing talks, Iran increased its uranium enrichment process.
Do you think this is legitimate or is it a threatening gesture?
Ulyanov:
Strictly speaking, with the enrichment to 60 percent, Iran is not violating its legal obligations, namely the obligations arising from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
SPIEGEL:
That may be, but the nuclear agreement provides for an upper limit of 3.67 percent for enrichment.
"I am not aware of any case in which a state that does not have nuclear weapons has enriched uranium to this high level."
Ulyanov:
We don't welcome it when our partners exceed the limits of the JCPOA so significantly at this stage of the negotiations. I am not aware of any case in which a state that does not have nuclear weapons has enriched uranium to this high level. However, we shouldn't be too confused by this, but instead concentrate on our common goal. If we succeed, all of these limit overruns will be a thing of the past. What is currently happening in the Iranian plants also has a political side: The Iranians were provoked, only recently by the explosion at their Natans nuclear complex. They were provoked in November by the fatal attack on one of their most important nuclear scientists.
SPIEGEL:
In both cases, there is little doubt that Israel was behind the attacks.
Ulyanov:
Such acts are extremely counterproductive.
SPIEGEL:
What influence did the explosion in Natans have on the talks in Vienna?
"We are convinced that the nuclear deal is in the interests of Israel and other Iranian neighbors."
Ulyanov:
At the first meeting after the act of sabotage there was a heated debate, especially between Iran and Western Europeans.
Russia appealed to remain objective and not to lose sight of the main goal.
Russia's role in the Middle East
SPIEGEL:
Are the Russians concerned about Israel's strong resistance to the agreement?
Ulyanov:
I'd rather say we regret it.
We have good relations with Israel on many levels, we understand and respect Israeli views.
However, we believe that the strict rejection of the JCPOA is not reasonable.
On the contrary, we are convinced that the nuclear deal is in the interests of Israel and other Iranian neighbors.
Because it serves to ensure the exclusively peaceful orientation of the Iranian nuclear program.
Sometimes it looks like the goal of Israeli politics is to end all nuclear activity in Iran.
It is impossible because Iranians have a right to use nuclear energy peacefully.
SPIEGEL:
Does Moscow want to prevent Iran from getting hold of an atomic bomb at all costs?
Ulyanov:
Yes.
And it applies to any country that does not have nuclear weapons.
There are five recognized and four other states in the world that have atomic bombs.
Under no circumstances should more be added, that is an important goal of our policy.
SPIEGEL:
Russia sees itself as a stabilizing factor in the Middle East.
Is the nuclear deal with Iran an opportunity to make this clear to the world?
"I am proud of the stabilizing role that Russia plays in Syria."
Ulyanov:
Not only Russia sees itself as a stabilizing factor there, but large parts of the world, especially the countries in the region.
Just a few days ago I had numerous meetings with colleagues from the countries concerned.
They have a very positive opinion of the role Russia plays, even if they have difficult or hostile relations with one another.
SPIEGEL:
In the West, however, there is considerable criticism of Russian influence in Syria.
Moscow supports dictator Bashar al-Assad, on whose hands the blood of his nation is stuck.
Do you understand the criticism?
"We in Russia don't like regime change, we don't play these games."
Ulyanov:
Absolutely not.
I am proud of the stabilizing role that Russia is playing in Syria.
We're cooperating with the government, we're talking to the opposition.
It is thanks to Russia that Syria did not become a second Libya, an entity without a state order.
Why is the West criticizing us?
Maybe because he's jealous of our success.
Perhaps also because the goal of Western politics was regime change in Damascus.
We in Russia don't like regime changes, we don't play these games.
SPIEGEL:
Back to Iran.
When the nuclear agreement was signed in 2015, all world powers pulled together - something that now hardly exists.
Are the ongoing negotiations again an opportunity to show agreement on an important issue?
Ulyanov:
Yes, I think so, and so do my colleagues here in Vienna, apparently.
It is crucial that through these talks we pursue a common purpose and thereby do something for global security.
It's a positive moment.
SPIEGEL:
Do you see this as a glimmer of hope for better cooperation between the great powers in other areas as well?
Ulyanov:
I'm not very optimistic about relations between Russia and the West.
There's this well-known joke: When we thought we'd hit the bottom, someone knocked from below.
Something similar could happen to us.