(CNN Spanish) -
Argentina returned to strict confinement to contain the spread of covid-19.
The measures decreed by President Alberto Fernández will run until May 30 and affect economic, educational, social and sports activities.
About this conjunctural moment of pandemic and crisis in the region, Alberto Fernández spoke with María O'Donnell and Ernesto Tenembaum at Conecta2.
These are some excerpts from the interview.
Argentina is in a very hard time at this time, this Saturday began a new stage of confinement, the cases of covid-19 are overwhelmed in many cities of the country. Is there any self-criticism that is made? Not having avoided this, does it feel like a government failure or a personal failure?
What I feel is that many did not listen to me, quite frankly. I am not an expert in the matter and it is not that I have confidential information that allows me to know in advance things that Argentines do not know. What I do have an advantage, which I always mark when I speak, which is: I saw what happened in Europe. What does this mean? We always run after what is happening to Europe. What happens to Europe soon happens to us. Europe experienced a second wave and a very terrible third wave and that was inexorably going to come to us. And so I have been raising in Argentina the need to prepare for that. I gave a speech, back in March, where I explained that we were on our way to this and that we could please avoid it by restricting and putting on. At that time it was a call for reflection to the social group.The media said: 'Why did he make a chain, if he didn't say anything?' I said everything. I said what was going to happen. I had warned that this was coming to us and I warned that it would be inexorable to avoid it. So what we could do was minimize the effects. Then I dictated measures and what happened happened. I do not want to go back, but there were jurisdictions that did not respect the measures, there were jurisdictions that said they were not necessary. Later I dictated measures specifically for the metropolitan area of Buenos Aires. And I noticed that day that it was going to spread to the whole country. And they didn't listen to me. They told me 'I have more beds', they said 'I have no problems'. And it spread throughout the country. And the beds were filled with great speed.I had warned that this was coming to us and I warned that it would be inexorable to avoid it. So what we could do was minimize the effects. Then I dictated measures and what happened happened. I do not want to go back, but there were jurisdictions that did not respect the measures, there were jurisdictions that said they were not necessary. Later I dictated measures specifically for the metropolitan area of Buenos Aires. And I noticed that day that it was going to spread to the whole country. And they didn't listen to me. They told me 'I have more beds', they said 'I have no problems'. And it spread throughout the country. And the beds were filled with great speed.I had warned that this was coming to us and I warned that it would be inexorable to avoid it. So what we could do was minimize the effects. Then I dictated measures and what happened happened. I do not want to go back, but there were jurisdictions that did not respect the measures, there were jurisdictions that said they were not necessary. Later I dictated measures specifically for the metropolitan area of Buenos Aires. And I noticed that day that it was going to spread to the whole country. And they didn't listen to me. They told me 'I have more beds', they said 'I have no problems'. And it spread throughout the country. And the beds were filled with great speed.there were jurisdictions that said they didn't need it. Later I dictated measures specifically for the metropolitan area of Buenos Aires. And I noticed that day that it was going to spread to the whole country. And they didn't listen to me. They told me 'I have more beds', they said 'I have no problems'. And it spread throughout the country. And the beds were filled with great speed.there were jurisdictions that said they didn't need it. Later I dictated measures specifically for the metropolitan area of Buenos Aires. And I noticed that day that it was going to spread to the whole country. And they didn't listen to me. They told me 'I have more beds', they said 'I have no problems'. And it spread throughout the country. And the beds were filled with great speed.
Is it only nine days of strict confinement?
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This blow is what in the European experience they call «the hammer blow», which what it does is: it allows you to shuffle and turn around, it allows you to save time, it allows you to lower the number of infections and it allows you to save time in the administration of health, attention to contagions.
All this allows you.
Is it so?
I trust it to be so. If we all comply and we all follow the rules, we may succeed. It is intended to be so. Now, regarding Larroque's comment: we are not going to leave people in the band. We didn't do it before, we are going to do it now. We did not do it when they left the country as they did, we will not do it now that we have more fiscal resources. What I mean by this? If it is necessary to provide assistance of this nature, we will analyze it and see how to do it so that it reaches the appropriate person. And we would. The last thing I want is for people to suffer more than they already suffer. People suffer from what was left to them in 2019 and the pandemic was added to them. Everything I can do so that people do not suffer from that, I am going to do it. But first of all, because the truth,it makes no sense to think about that, if I don't take care of people's lives.
You are looking at what happens in Europe. And that was in March and then Easter came and much of the second wave had to do with tourist movements. Then came the discussion of the face-to-face classes.
I want to remember that during Holy Week I warned and even declared public administration leave and invited everyone to declare public administration leave, and I noticed what was happening and what was coming.
It may be that the plotting of a federal system has slowed down the measures, but I remember that you said a phrase by Pedro Sánchez that if the virus is given space, it will not do so at all. And the Minister of Tourism said that you could go out at Easter.
In reality, there was great pressure from the provinces to leave Easter.
I understand.
For Bariloche, Holy Week is central because they live two months from that Holy Week.
I understand it.
And for Jujuy or for the falls in Misiones, it is central, I understand it.
What I want to understand is what the risk is.
Don't you think there was an oversight with education and with the kids, beyond the discussion in recent weeks?
All this has been studied by the Federal Council of Education.
I don't think there was an oversight.
I think it is a problem.
The pandemic confronts us with the unknown, this is what must be understood.
What happened now never happened to the world.
But education stopped ...
It is the obsession of health for health that complicates education for us.
It's not that we don't have an obsession.
What is the priority: that they are educated or that they are healthy?
Well, my priority is in health.
What can and cannot be done during the new confinement in Argentina?
But the effect on education is so strong ...
Can anyone think that I, who dedicated my life to teaching, am going to say that education does not matter? Sure it matters. And of course it hurts and of course it worries me. And what choice do I have? Because the only thing that is proven is that in school-age children from 0 to 12 years old, the increase in infections - Pedro Cahn gave me the data the other day - increased 110 percent, they increased to 110 percent. What changed in that time? Scholarship. So what I ask is that we understand that this is not the problem. I understand perfectly well that we have to regain education and that children need - even for a matter of personal discipline - to get up, go to school, have their homework. Of course it is necessary, of course it is necessary. Now, the problem is that if I do it as if what is happening in Argentina did not happen,the risk is very great and it is seen that he was right. I don't want to shy away from the discussion, I think a lot of confusing things were done. I think that this confusion called for more social confusion and I think that to a great extent the relaxation we are experiencing is the product of all that debate where people simplify and it is reasonable, we all tend to simplify.
ABOUT COVID-19 VACCINES
On the subject of vaccines, which is the other key at this time of the coronavirus, a comparison with Uruguay or even with Chile by number of inhabitants is statistically unfair. Now, it is fair if we compare it with Brazil, which also has an anti-vaccine president, Bolsonaro. And if you see the percentage of vaccination of the population with at least one dose, we are practically on par.
Now we are here better than Brazil and I think that in the next few days when a significant number of vaccines arrive, we will be better.
But the truth is, this is not a competition between countries, because beyond Bolsonaro, be that as it may -if it is more anti-vaccines or more pro-vaccines-, the reality is that getting vaccines is a problem, it is not an Argentine problem: it is a problem of the world.
It cost Spain as much as Argentina, it cost France as much as Argentina to get vaccines.
Fernández: Pfizer was the first vaccine approved in Argentina 1:26
They already have almost 40%, almost double that of Argentina
But it cost them a lot, it cost them a lot.
When you go to Europe, everyone tells about the difficulties they had, because contracts were not fulfilled.
This is what happened.
And with whom they had the most difficulty getting vaccines was with Pfizer.
So: here there is a whole fantasy created saying 'they buy vaccines from the communists and don't buy them vaccines'….
Nobody found out what happened in the 90s with the fall of the Berlin Wall.
So with that approach they move forward, move forward and say: 'they don't want to bring vaccines from the United States'.
I spoke with the president of Moderna, I spoke with the president of AstraZeneca.
I spoke with Pfizer.
There is a problem.
What happened to Pfizer?
Do you know what the first vaccine was approved in Argentina?
The Pfizer.
So please explain to me why if I approved the vaccine then I didn't buy it.
The truth: it seems to me that Pfizer ... Because Pfizer did not sign with us, but with those it signed, it could not comply.
To Uruguay and Chile yes, but there are two million vaccines
And he did not fulfill the contract, he did not fulfill what the contracts said.
The impression I have is that at some point the United States decided to preserve all vaccines for its population and Pfizer said it will not sign any more contracts, because if I have to leave vaccines in the United States, I will not be able to comply.
And breached.
INTERNATIONAL POLICY
What is the position of the Argentine government in the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians?
The position of the Argentine government is that in the Middle East the violence has to end.
I respect the State of Israel and I respect its government.
And if there is a terrorist group, as Israel says, that attacks it, also in the face of terrorism, the reaction must be proportional.
We Argentines know it.
Fernández: In the Middle East, the violence has to end 0:28
About Venezuela, you said that rights violations are disappearing.
The United Nations just said it.
But it is a rare position. Isn't it offensive to human rights victims?
No, because I don't, I'm not forgiving or pretending to be distracted in the face of the violation of human rights that may have existed. I only explain that there was a moment when the Maduro government was strongly questioned. There was a statement by Michelle Bachelet as High Commissioner for Human Rights at the United Nations, questioning what was happening in a report, questioning what was happening in the field of human rights in Venezuela. We vote in favor of that report. Many of our colleagues criticized us. I spoke with the Maduro government asking it to favor the presence of a permanent office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights in Venezuela. The government of Nicolás Maduro agreed to that and yesterday with tranquility, it is not with joy, with tranquility,I read the tweet from the United Nations saying that things had changed a lot in Venezuela, what happened will be the object of investigation, dispossession and that each one takes responsibility. The important thing is that today this problem tends to diminish.
Fernández: What happened in Venezuela must be judged 1:02
You also spoke out for the repression that took place in the streets of Colombia, there has just been a kind of political earthquake in Chile. How are you seeing the process in Latin America?
I believe that what the world must see and what we Latin Americans must see is that orthodox policies that the central world stopped applying cannot continue to be applied.
Look at Biden, with the respect I have for President Biden, I jokingly call him Juan Domingo Biden, because he says things that Peronism always said.
Editor's note: (In reference to Juan Domingo Perón, founder of Peronism in Argentina).
But Peronism does not have a history of friendship with the United States.
That's why I say it.
I told Kerry when I was talking to him.
The truth is that I live with great hope what Biden is doing, with very good expectations.
I acknowledge that I suffered as the Argentine ruler and the ruler of a Latin American country the Trump government: I suffered it.
And the truth is, he fervently wanted the vote of the American people to be with Biden because the world needed him.
And I calmly see what Biden raises.
It is a rational look at what is happening in the world.
And I don't want to get into the internal politics of the United States, but it seems to me that it is a rational look that gives everyone peace of mind.
When I was in Europe I talked about it with all the European leaders and we all have the same perception.
Fernández: I see with great hope what Biden does 0:53
ABOUT THE INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND
The agreement with the Fund, would it be expected to happen when?
“I want it as soon as possible and I hope that as soon as possible. And from what I talked to Kristalina we are not that far from achieving it, we are not that far. It was a very good talk, very frank and very honest where I highlighted all these things. At the end of the month there is a maturity with the Paris Club, which I think we will be able to extend in the payment obligation. I discussed this with Macron and as we are conducting the talks with the Fund well, I believe that we are going to achieve it. And I hope that with the Fund we can close soon. I believe that there are also many things to review in the Fund. There are many things that are not analyzed in the media and it has a lot to do with our agreement. For example, the issue of surcharges. When the Fund lends the country money, it charges a 1 percent interest rate ... Argentina pays 3.Why? Because they say that it exceeded the loan quota that Argentina could receive. Now, that is the responsibility of Argentina and it is the responsibility of the Fund. What did you lend him for if he couldn't receive? That is one point. They told us: 'We cannot end the surcharge because Portugal paid it.' I went to Portugal, I spoke with Antonio Costa, Portugal's extraordinary prime minister, a man who put Portugal on its feet after a huge crisis, along with De Sousa, the president of Portugal. I told him what was happening. He came out publicly and said: 'Portugal lived through the surcharges, we must end the surcharge.' Bottom line: don't give me the excuse of Portugal anymore.What did you lend him for if he couldn't receive? That is one point. They told us: 'We cannot end the surcharge because Portugal paid it.' I went to Portugal, I spoke with Antonio Costa, Portugal's extraordinary prime minister, a man who put Portugal on its feet after a huge crisis, along with De Sousa, the president of Portugal. I told him what was happening. He came out publicly and said: 'Portugal lived through the surcharges, we must end the surcharge.' Bottom line: don't give me the excuse of Portugal anymore.What did you lend him for if he couldn't receive? That is one point. They told us: 'We cannot end the surcharge because Portugal paid it.' I went to Portugal, I spoke with Antonio Costa, Portugal's extraordinary prime minister, a man who put Portugal on its feet after a huge crisis, along with De Sousa, the president of Portugal. I told him what was happening. He came out publicly and said: 'Portugal lived through the surcharges, we must end the surcharge.' Bottom line: don't give me the excuse of Portugal anymore."Portugal lived through the surcharges, we must end the surcharge." Bottom line: don't give me the excuse of Portugal anymore."Portugal lived through the surcharges, we must end the surcharge." Bottom line: don't give me the excuse of Portugal anymore.
Israel: the Argentine whose house was destroyed by a Hamas missile
The agreement implies a fiscal balance, a series of conditions
Today's fiscal balance is not a matter for strict discussion, because no one has fiscal balance.
Look what the United States just did.
The fiscal balance came out of the manuals of economic orthodoxy.
Economic orthodoxy no longer exists in the world, it no longer exists, it no longer exists: it has been broken by the central countries.
Look what happens in Europe with the harsh rule that no one could have more than one point of fiscal deficit and today all of Europe has an amazing fiscal deficit.
So those are things that we repeat in Argentina because we continue to hear the same thing that was said about the 90s, but it is no longer spoken in the world.
Obviously we want to.
I am a disciple of Kirchner. With Kirchner we boasted of having been the only ones in Argentina in 150 years that for five consecutive years had a surplus. I mean, don't explain it to me. The reality is that the world no longer attends to the fiscal balance, it does not attend because they have all broken it.
Biden's plan, which I applaud want to clarify, has nothing to do with the fiscal deficit. The truth is that what the Senate says is fine and in the sense that if I have an agreement with the Fund, I do not have to pay the Fund anything immediately and I will have a waiting period to start paying it. Therefore, the SDRs enter the Treasury and can be used for whatever Argentina needs. If the question is give me the SDR to pay debts, the answer is no. If the question is, do you enter the SDR and do you pay debt? If I have an agreement with the Fund, no. If the question is, if the SDR comes in and you don't have an agreement with the Fund, what are you going to do? Well, I'll have to see there because if I don't pay the Fund I will default and I don't want to default.
So what the Senate has said is absolutely consistent with what I think. I think that an agreement must be made as appropriate, where we take time to review the funds, the times, for a few deadlines. It is something that you will not be able to review now but I want to continue raising it for discussion. Second, that we can see about the rates and surcharges, that the executive director of the Fund told me that, that they were going to analyze it shortly and that she believed that this was possible. And then see how the SDRs are distributed, which is a central issue.
With the special drawing rights, the Fund plans to go to the Fund and the Fund will distribute them at its discretion. But what always happens is that the Monetary Fund divides the world into three bands. Kristalina laughed because I said I experienced that as the middle brother syndrome. The story is like that. The older brother is the most demanded by the family, they demand that he be perfect, you have to study more than anyone else, it has to be the boy or the girl 10. The younger brother is the most spoiled in the family. He can study less, he can dedicate himself to tennis, football, whatever comes to mind. The one in the middle, nobody remembers, makes his life as best he can and that happens to Argentina with the Fund. Why? Because when it comes to distributing the SDR, when it comes to seeing how the world works, the rich countries, the older brothers, have no problems,they emit what they want. The minors are helped and the middle-income ones, which are us, what happens? They treat us like we are older but in truth we are more like boys.
Ernesto Tenembaum, María O'Donnell and President Alberto Fernández at Conecta2.
ABOUT THE ARGENTINE ECONOMY
Regarding Argentine inflation ..
There is an inflationary consciousness, which is in the intermediaries and in the final sellers as well. That is why one wonders why milk increases as it increases from when it is taken out of the dairy until it reaches the gondola. Why is it increasing so much? And we are things that we must correct but it takes time because it is a culture. It is a culture of the country that you have to live like that. I, half jokingly, half seriously, told Nestor Kirchner two things years ago. The first, that we were a punk country. The punk movement had a phrase, the phrase that there is no future. So, enjoy the present because there is no future. And in Argentina that logic as a consequence of prime inflation: there is no future. So get all your advantages today, everything has to be short-term. Business plans are made in the world for ten years: in Argentina,they are made of two. Everything has to be short term. The second thing that Nestor always said is that Argentina is a recovered alcoholic in terms of inflation. It is equal to an alcoholic. What does a person recovering from alcoholism need? Don't show him any more alcohol. If I happen to be a recovered alcoholic and they pour me a glass of wine, this glass of wine may once again unleash my alcoholism. Then they show him a bit of inflation and they all start drinking from that drink.If I happen to be a recovered alcoholic and they pour me a glass of wine, this glass of wine may once again unleash my alcoholism. Then they show him a bit of inflation and they all start drinking from that drink.If I happen to be a recovered alcoholic and they pour me a glass of wine, this glass of wine may once again unleash my alcoholism. Then they show him a bit of inflation and they all start drinking from that drink.
The Minister of Economy Martín Guzmán had spoken of two increases in rates, there was one of 9%. For the whole year there will be no further increase in rates for public services?
What Guzmán spoke we foresaw in a totally different setting.
We had not foreseen that we were going to have the inflationary escalation that we had in March and April, which in two months would be almost nine points.
That makes us rethink the issue.
I cannot have this inflationary level and demand more from people.
Therefore, we, the tariff is a finished topic.
The rate is a finished issue, we go with the increase that we discussed.
Let's go, yes, as Martín says, to work on segmentation, because on that I totally agree with Martín.
Segmentation.
If we do not segment, we all end up benefiting from subsidies paid by the State.
Fernández, on the agreement with the meat producers 0:44
On the ban on exporting meat and the conflict with the agricultural sector
We will agree.
We are going to find an agreement that respects the Argentines, that respects the Argentines because they are not respecting the Argentines and the Argentines are not respecting them.
And my only concern, realize, is that I need a positive trade balance, that restricting exports to me hurts me.
But I'm not going to benefit from the macro if I punish people with this.
People come first.
ON THE APPOINTMENT OF AN ATTORNEY GENERAL
You proposed a name as the Attorney General of the Nation, the vice president does not support it and the Senate does not call a session to discuss that name. Are they going to do it in the middle of elections?
That is in the hands of the Senate.
I already sent a name and it is the name that I have kept.
But the Senate is chaired by its vice president, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner.
Let's tell the whole story.
History says that the opposition always refused to discuss the issue.
He says now let's deal with it when faced with the risk of falling to appoint the attorney ... He is the candidate that I am going to keep.
Let's look at all the behaviors.
Politics is not like that.
First point: we do not have a prosecutor because the Macri government pressured the prosecutor to make her resign and since then we have not had a prosecutor.
I propose a name and the opposition does not want to name it until it is overwhelmed by reality, because a law is about to come out that says to appoint the attorney it takes half, more or less.
And at that moment Rafecas becomes valuable to them.
But the ruling party never called audiences.
One of the things you have to learn is that no one initiates their own defeat.
So if we started the hearings, we were heading for a loss because we weren't going to have two-thirds.
Now they are heading for a triumph.
Hopefully this happened last week.
It didn't happen six years ago.
It happened last week.
Alberto Fernandez