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Once cabinet colleagues, today opponents: Ursula von der Leyen and Katarina Barley (2019)
Photo: Gregor Fischer / DPA
SPIEGEL:
Ms. Barley, the European Parliament is giving the EU Commission an ultimatum: If the EU Commission does not take decisive action against countries like Poland or Hungary, where the rule of law is at risk, then the MEPs want to sue the Commission.
Why so confrontational?
Barley:
That's a long story.
Viktor Orbán has ruled Hungary since 2010, the PiS in Poland since 2015. Both are trying not only to dismantle the legal act in their countries, but also to undermine it throughout Europe.
The EU is not resisting this enough.
We don't want to accept that any longer.
SPIEGEL:
For a long time, the EU had no effective means of defense.
Barley:
That's right, that's why, under pressure from Parliament, we decided on the rule of law mechanism that came into force at the beginning of the year.
This makes it possible to punish states that do not adhere to the principles of the EU by withholding money from the EU budget.
You just have to use the mechanism.
SPIEGEL:
The Commission says that possible sanctions must be legally protected so that they are not overturned by the European Court of Justice.
Hungary and Poland have already sued the rule of law mechanism.
Barley:
Filing a law doesn't mean you shouldn't apply it.
I understand that the Commission wants to be careful.
That's why we didn't put pressure on it in January.
But there is no reason not to apply the law and to accept that Europe will continue to suffer.
SPIEGEL:
The European Council, that is, the heads of state and government, has insisted that the Court of Justice wait for the ruling before there are sanctions.
Barley:
It is not at all possible for the heads of state and government to interfere so massively in a decision that the Council and Parliament passed with a large majority.
Apparently the heads of government fear that Poland or Hungary could block important decisions with their veto.
The EU must not allow itself to be blackmailed!
Furthermore, there is no reason why the Commission should follow the Council's recommendations on this point - if it continues to do so, we believe it is actually breaking European law.
SPIEGEL:
The commission argues that nothing will be lost by waiting.
Barley:
I can't with the best of will hear that argument anymore.
Of course, the Polish judge who is illegally transferred far from his family loses valuable life.
He won't get it back either if his transfer has to be reversed at some point.
And do you really believe that at some point we will get back the money that disappears in the pockets of Viktor Orbán's cronies?
SPIEGEL:
How do you explain the Commission's hesitation?
Barley:
I have to be honest, I can't explain it to myself.
I have known the Commissioner responsible, Věra Jourová, for a very long time and I appreciate her.
My impression is that she would like to do more, but that is not what she wants.
SPIEGEL:
In other words, Commission President Ursula von der Leyen is putting the brakes on.
You have known them for a long time, you were both in the same cabinet.
Are you surprised by their behavior?
Barley:
Yes, I don't understand Ursula von der Leyen's hesitation.
Spiegel:
You have no idea what your motivation might be?
Barley:
Ursula von der Leyen said when she was elected Commission President that she would seek dialogue with all member states.
In doing so, she wanted to differentiate herself from her competitor Frans Timmermans, who was much tougher on the rule of law.
But we've been conducting the dialogue for ten years and it has brought nothing.
SPIEGEL:
There was hope that the threat of financial sanctions alone would lead to a rethink.
Do you see anything like that?
Barley:
On the contrary.
The Czech Republic has sued the European Court of Justice against the further mining of lignite in the German-Polish-Czech border triangle.
The court ordered an immediate halt to mining in May.
And what is the government doing in Warsaw?
You just let the business go on.
SPIEGEL:
Poland is now pointing out that Germany does not recognize every judgment of the European Court of Justice. The Federal Constitutional Court has accused the Court of Justice of having exceeded its powers on the issue of the European Central Bank's purchase of bonds. The Commission has therefore initiated infringement proceedings against Germany.
Barley:
I am pleased that the Commission is now requesting clarification from Germany.
It is true that it makes a difference whether a court turns against the European Court of Justice in an individual case or a government that is increasingly acting against the rule of law does so systematically.
But the ruling from Karlsruhe naturally plays into the hands of Poland and Hungary.
Since then, they have been saying: You don't do it any differently than we do.
This means that the foundations of Europe-wide legislation are at stake.
The infringement procedure is therefore an important, overdue signal from the EU, but it is also necessary to bring about legal clarifications.
SPIEGEL:
Do you
think
that by blocking EU funds, Poland and Hungary will be persuaded to turn back?
Barley
: It will be very difficult to get the PiS or Viktor Orbán to change their behavior. Of course they use the narrative that the morally neglected West wants to impose its values on them. Questions of the separation of powers and an independent judiciary are not a matter of opinion or national peculiarities, they are rather the foundations of our European community. There are now even more countries that are taking a problematic path. Slovenia is one of them, for example. It's important to make it clear that this has a price. Otherwise Europe will suffer irreparable damage.
