“Maybrit Illner” welcomes Robert Habeck and Friedrich Merz to the studio debate.
The duel will be heated when it comes to public finance and the debt brake.
Berlin - At the discussion table of "Maybrit Illner", the politicians Robert Habeck (Greens) and Friedrich Merz (CDU) sit diametrically opposite each other, but on the subject of Afghanistan they agree on many questions at the beginning of the program. Merz says: “The pictures we see tonight are terrible. We had to wait for them. These attacks by the Islamic State, which is presumably behind them, have also been the subject of media coverage for days. This mission ends in utter disaster, worse than what the Americans experienced in Vietnam in 1975. And it will take us a long time to come to terms with that. "
Robert Habeck recalls the beginning of the war in Afghanistan: “It was not communicated honestly.
It was a war from the start, and for a very long time it couldn't be called that.
And the military defeat is now outweighed by a moral defeat, in fact just as Friedrich Merz said.
This is a disaster.
And the people who risked their lives trusting that the words of the West, the USA, NATO and Germany will apply, that the rule of law, freedom, access to the media, freedom of expression, rights for women and girls will be introduced there - they are now twice betrayed and sold. "
Kabul in chaos: “Maybrit Illner” round calls for a reappraisal of government action
Friedrich Merz initially sticks to his demands for resignation against Foreign Minister Heiko Maaß (SPD): “I think that the first responsibility for the security of the embassy staff lies with the Foreign Minister and he has not lived up to this responsibility. Days in advance there were indications and requests to evacuate the embassy, including by the intelligence services, and he did not follow it. ”However, since nobody is stepping down around four weeks before the general election, this demand is now“ irrelevant. The decisive factor is: What will happen now? ”He is interested in what it means for the international balance of forces that China and Russia have not closed their embassies but increased them.
"I would like to contradict Friedrich Merz," interferes the journalist Dagmar Rosenfeld. “It doesn't matter what happened and now just look ahead. It takes a very decisive reappraisal of what has been going on in the federal government in the past few weeks. "Merz does not want to be misunderstood and says:" I said, it doesn't matter now what happens to the people. Those are not the deciding factors. The decisive factor is what conclusions must now be drawn from this. And for that the facts have to be worked up. ”Rosenfeld therefore asks:“ That means you are also for a committee of inquiry? ”Merz rows back:“ You have to see whether this is a committee of inquiry or whether it is another body, but that it is processed must be, that is completely clear. "
Several attacks in Kabul - and no one takes responsibility
Robert Habeck outlines that this reappraisal is made more difficult by a diffusing responsibility: “The state of irresponsibility is of course rampant.
In this case, that applies to responsibility for assessing the situation in Afghanistan.
Nobody wants it to have been - the Ministry of the Interior, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Ministry of Defense, the Chancellery, the BND, everyone says: Not me!
Throw away responsibility like a hot potato.
But no one needs a government where no one wants to be.
The privilege of serving a country is still a great one.
So we need a self-image, that is: I always want to have been.
It can't work any other way. "
“Maybrit Illner” - These guests participated in the discussion
Robert Habeck (Greens) - politician
Friedrich Merz (CDU) - politician
Dagmar Rosenfeld - journalist
Achim Truger - economist
Illner-Krach on ZDF: Habeck admits "debacle" - Merz 'statement about Laschet lets look deep
Then the “Maybrit Illner” round breaks away from the long shadow of Afghanistan and is dedicated to the upcoming general election.
Confronted with the ailing polls from Union Chancellor candidate Armin Laschet (CDU), Friedrich Merz still believes in a U-turn: “We have a difficult starting position, but we have faced difficult starting positions more often in federal elections.
I am sure that we can manage to become the strongest parliamentary group in the German Bundestag by the Bundestag election on September 26th. "
Merz added - probably with a view to Laschet's poor survey results - that the Union still has good chances of holding the Chancellery. “In the end, people don't just vote for top candidates, they vote for parties.” In social media, Merz interpreted this statement as extremely cautious praise. Convincing backing for their own candidate for chancellor looks different, it said.
Meanwhile, Merz does not want to know anything about the talk show host Illner's allegation that Bavaria's Prime Minister Markus Söder (CSU) is sabotaging Armin Laschet's candidacy: “The opposite is true, Ms. Illner.
Markus Söder is campaigning like no other in the Union.
Take a look at his diary, take a look at my diary: We are campaigning.
For Armin Laschet and the CDU, he for the CSU in Bavaria. “Four weeks until the election is still enough time to secure a good result for the Union, says Merz.
Robert Habeck at "Maybrit Illner": "That is big window paste"
Robert Habeck is not worried that the Greens are only in third place in the polls: “We are playing for first place just like the others. Sure, we're two goals behind at the moment. But, here I am with Mr. Merz, four weeks is a long time. And we are always able to play a steep pass from the depths of the room forward into the penalty area and bang, the thing turns. ”According to Habeck, the fact that the Greens in Saarland cannot be elected is“ our own debacle ”. . He sees the responsibility for this with the federal executive committee of the Greens, to which he himself belongs: "That is big window paste."
Habeck and Merz then discuss content-related differences, especially on the question of the debt brake.
Friedrich Merz's point of view is clear, humorlessly he says: “The debt brake is in the Basic Law.” Habeck explains why he wants to loosen the debt brake: “We will have to take money in hand or nothing will happen.
It's not that difficult to understand.
Someone will have to pay for the reorganization of the economy, the way we live and how we get around.
Either each for himself, each company for himself, or we use the power of solidarity. "
Friedrich Merz accuses the Greens program of “state belief”
At the same time, Habeck would like to keep the debt brake: “I don't want to go back to before the debt brake. But introduce a logic into the debt brake that says: What builds up new wealth, that is, creates new values of the state, new infrastructure, new economic prosperity, that which is also a wealth, so to speak, can be financed. "Habeck receives support from the economist Achim Truger: “Basically, this is based on what was long in the financial science textbooks. I think that's plausible. "
"Your program breathes faith in the state on 137 pages," accuses Friedrich Merz of Robert Habeck and his Greens.
In classic Friedrich Merz fashion, he calls for the creation of a climate that enables private capital to create jobs in Germany.
"Sticking to a position that no longer fits reality is ideology," counters Habeck and continues: "Call us believers in the state, I say: you bite into an ideology that no longer fits reality."
“Maybrit Illner” - the conclusion of the show
Between the politicians Robert Habeck (Greens) and Friedrich Merz (CDU), things will not be as heated at “Maybrit Illner” as some might promise themselves during election campaign times.
Overshadowed by the situation in Afghanistan, there was great agreement in the group at the beginning about the failure of the international community in the Hindu Kush.
When the broadcast arrives at the topic of the upcoming federal election, the two begin to work off each other.
The journalist Dagmar Rosenfeld holds back from making speeches, and the economist Achim Truger only appears marginally - but when it does, the economic approach more often supports Habeck's position than Merz's position.
List of rubric lists: © ZDF / Maybrit Illner
