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Katarina Barley on the EU dispute with Poland: "I hope for clearer words from the new federal government"

2021-10-19T07:22:15.455Z


Before the speech of the Polish Prime Minister today in the EU Parliament, Vice-Chair Katarina Barley is pushing for more toughness against Poland and Hungary - and has demands on a new German government.


Enlarge image

Demonstrations against the Polish Constitutional Court in Wroclaw

Photo: Maciej Kulczynski / epa

SPIEGEL: 

Ms. Barley, the Polish Constitutional Court has postulated the primacy of Polish law over EU law and thus called the European legal community into question.

Nevertheless, Chancellor Merkel warns against too quick sanctions against Poland.

Is she right about that?

Barley: 

That was always Ms. Merkel's course and that is also Ursula von der Leyen's approach: dialogue, building bridges, no confrontation.

The Polish government has now been in office for six years and the Hungarian government for eleven years.

We can now see where the course of the dialogue has led.

In Hungary one can hardly talk about democracy any more.

In Poland, the rule of law is being eroded.

We should not repeat the mistakes of the past few years.

More consistent measures are now needed.

SPIEGEL

: The EU Commission has already changed course.

Ursula von der Leyen has stopped the payment of the Corona development aid for Poland.

Barley

: The commission has moved a bit after doing next to nothing for six years.

According to reports, she originally wanted to pay out the first tranche of the money on the day on which the Polish Constitutional Court pronounced its verdict.

SPIEGEL

: After all, there are billions of euros that are now being withheld from Poland.

Isn't that enough for now?

Barley: 

I'm glad that Frau von der Leyen is finally acting, but it's far too late.

I also have little confidence that she will hold out in her position.

With the best will in the world, I cannot imagine which argument should be used to pay out the money now.

But I think anything is possible with this Commission.

SPIEGEL: 

Parliament wants to sue the Commission so that it can initiate proceedings based on the so-called rule of law mechanism.

For example, Poland could cut or cancel further funds.

But what speaks against waiting now to see whether the reluctance of the Corona development aid is effective?

SPIEGEL: 

First of all, the rule of law mechanism has now been created for cases such as Poland.

There is no comprehensible reason why the Commission refuses to use this instrument.

That is a fundamental question.

In addition, it can take years for such a procedure to take effect.

We have already lost enough time.

SPIEGEL: 

One is increasingly getting the impression that the Polish government is not playing tactical games, but rather an ideological policy.

If so, then it will not be dissuaded by lost EU funds.

Is your goal to push Warsaw out of the EU?

Barley

: Definitely no.

Poland is a central part of Europe.

We cannot emphasize enough what the Polish people have achieved, also for the European Union and for German reunification.

Unfortunately, we have a government in Warsaw that thinks it can redefine the EU on its own.

80 percent of Polish citizens want to stay in the EU.

We have to make it clear to them that their own government is questioning Poland's EU membership, not us.

"In contrast to the Polish constitutional court, the Federal Constitutional Court recognizes the primacy of European law in principle."

SPIEGEL

: The Polish government likes to point out that the Federal Constitutional Court does not fully recognize the primacy of European law.

Aren't we measured by two standards?

Barley

: The cases are only partially comparable.

The Federal Constitutional Court ruled against its own government in its so-called Ultra-Vires judgment.

The Polish Constitutional Court was organized and staffed by the government in such a way that it will faithfully follow it - and it promptly passed a judgment that was "ordered" by the government in exactly the same way.

In addition, the Federal Constitutional Court - in contrast to the Polish Constitutional Court - recognizes the primacy of European law in principle.

SPIEGEL

: But not unconditionally.

Barley

: There is already a lot of case law about the possibility that European institutions can also exceed their competences.

I found the specific Karlsruhe judgment wrong and so problematic because it was to be expected that the Polish government would invoke it.

The Commission rightly initiated infringement proceedings against Germany.

This shows that double standards are not used.

SPIEGEL

: Not only the Commission, but also the governments of most of the other EU countries have reacted very cautiously to developments in Poland and Hungary.

Do you expect a change of course on this issue from a new federal government in which your party will presumably provide the chancellor?

Barley

: Yeah, I expect that.

It is already in the exploratory paper that the rule of law is to be strengthened in the EU.

We have to see what that looks like in detail.

But I strongly assume that a clearer language will then be spoken.

SPIEGEL

: So you believe that Olaf Scholz will position himself differently from Angela Merkel?

Barley

: The new federal government will recognize that dialogue is important.

But I assume that they know that this is not enough in this case and that the options that are available must be used.

If we do not hold the European Union together on the question of democracy and the rule of law, a process of dissolution will be set in motion that we can no longer stop.

SPIEGEL

: That means that a new chancellor should take a clear stand against developments in Poland or Hungary?

Barley

: There are governments like those in Scandinavia or the Netherlands that are very clear about that.

I also hope for clearer words from the new federal government.

Source: spiegel

All news articles on 2021-10-19

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