On September 5, two days before Rosh Hashanah, Prof. Amnon Rubinstein celebrated his 90th birthday. "I never expected to reach such an age," he smiles.
Perhaps this is the announcement by Avrom Burg, Speaker of the Knesset in 1999, that Rubinstein is no longer with us, that gave him a long life. The Basic Law of Freedom of Occupation, which served as a minister in four different governments and as a Member of Knesset for 25 years, which also included academia in his political life, does not really intend to slow down any time soon. He is currently publishing his seventh book Which deals with life expectancy and their extension (published by Zmora Bitan).
"I started writing at age 70 plus, as soon as I retired from the Knesset. I also write about history and law, but most of all I enjoy writing prose. I enjoy creating the types and dilemmas in the book, and try to solve them: I think of a given hero or heroine, and ask how they would behave In some situations.
"Methuselah" is a book about a company that deals with life extension. The protagonist is one of its senior officials. I read a lot about life extension and the expected development of technology, but for me the future is not of people flying to other galaxies, but of Tel Aviv in 60-50 years. ".
Rubinstein asks us which of the possible bindings sent to him by the publishing house seems the most successful.
"I do focus groups," he smiles, important to him that his book stand out from the variety offered by bookstores.
How often do you write?
"Every day. It helps me overcome everyday crises and annoyances. I usually write on the computer, but I write beautiful literature in ink and pencil, that's how I wrote all my books."
How did you celebrate your birthday?
"I had three very exciting events that touched my heart. One at the home of writer Yochi Brandes, I am a friend of hers and her husband. They held a meeting with the leadership of the Ministry of Education and invited all the people involved in my work as Minister of Education. We celebrated together and reminisced.
"Then I celebrated with the family. And the biggest celebration was Zoom - all my assistants from the last 20 years came together and surprised me. It was a complete surprise, and I was as excited as a little boy."
"I even dreamed of art"
We meet in the morning in his spacious apartment in Ramat Aviv.
His study is replete with law books, as well as beautiful literature.
Family photos adorn the shelves, and on the walls certificates of appreciation most often.
"I even dreamed of being something in the arts," he says.
"I studied for a year at Bezalel, in the Stone Age. I loved painting, there are even my works here. But I had a very big influence from my friends, who went before me to study law. I also like the logical challenges in the legal system and the basic human values. Most of humanity, should be remembered "Living under tyrannical and murderous rule."
He was born in Tel Aviv to parents who immigrated from Poland and had a right-wing worldview, supporters of the Irgun. He served in the Artillery Corps, studied law, economics and international relations at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and completed a doctorate in law at the London School of Economics. The State Attorney's Office in Jerusalem has never worked as a lawyer.
In 1974, he entered the political arena when he founded the Shinui movement, as part of the protest movements after the Yom Kippur War.
In 1976, he joined Legal Yadin and formed with him the Dash Party - the democratic movement for change. In 1977 he entered the Knesset for the first time.
At the end of 2002, he retired from the Knesset, after 25 years.
"I think about politics every day," he smiles.
"I only turned off the TV when you came in. I think every person in Israel should think about politics every day."
Are you happy that Meretz is in the government today?
"Yes, very much. It has one very big advantage - that it is a real Jewish-Arab party. I left Meretz in 2003, following the signing of the Geneva Accords, because it went too far back then. It blamed Israel for everything, and that is it. That's not true. She was equal to the anti-Zionist current that began 50-40 years ago, people who confused their minds with their nonsense against the State of Israel. I think every public figure should have come out against them. Mapai's phenomenal and abysmal fall was due to the fact that it did not She did this so that she did not renounce anti-Zionist circles. "
Meretz has more room to grow?
"Could be, mainly because of Nitzan Horowitz's good performances as health minister. But she can not become a ruling party. She has an agenda that most of the public does not agree with."
What do you think of Horowitz as chairman of Meretz?
"I am very impressed with him. Very. I think he changed the image of the party, because the Israeli public is used to Meretz attacking Israel and the Jewish public, and never attacking the Palestinians, and here comes a man who deals with the most important question, and the language of human beings."
He is still traveling to meet with Abu Mazen.
"Meeting with Abu Mazen is something I understand. After all, in the end we will have to talk to them - they are sitting here, across the fence. So I do not object to that, bad can not come out of it. Maybe a political solution will not come out, because Meretz represents a minority, but I am happy everywhere that Jews and Arabs meet and talk. "
During his tenure as Minister of Education, visiting Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin at a school in Or Yehuda.
"This is a position I did not even dream of," Photo: Avi Ohayon GPO
"I had an impact on Sharon"
Is the idea of two states for two peoples still relevant?
"Yes, because there is no other solution. There were three possible solutions: Jordanian rule in the West Bank; annexation, as some on the right want; and two states, with separation. In Lebanon they wanted to give independence to the Christian area and independence to the Muslim area. And paralyzes Lebanon.
"Here, I see the progress of the Arab minority in Israel as one of the most important and encouraging phenomena in the last ten years. Even under the rule of the right, the integration of Israeli Arabs has taken place. Imagine not getting along with them and adding two and a half million Arabs?
"Israeli society can no longer continue to control a Palestinian people that has a national feeling. I do not understand at all what the right thinks, what will happen here? I hear all kinds of crazy things - 'they will be under our control but vote in Jordan', 'they will be expelled as Formerly deported Arabs. 'All this is nonsense, it is not applicable.
"We have already taken significant steps. We have left Gaza. It was a bold move. I believe I had some influence on Sharon to do the deed."
how?
"We were in touch with my friends, our families were also friendly. Following events in Rafah - the expulsion of Bedouin families - I severed contact with him. When he was prime minister, he visited IDC and I caught him talking, also about the disengagement."
"By the way, when Begin flew to Ismailia as the Likud leader, and I was a member of the Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, I told him that he should demand from the Egyptians that they take back the Gaza Strip. He thought I was crazy.
"However, I accuse the Palestinian leadership of dragging its feet and refusing to discuss very practical and practical proposals. First and foremost, we must stop the hate propaganda against Israel. If you want to make peace, you cannot sue Israel in the criminal court in The Hague. You cannot manage "Horrible propaganda against her, and you can not pay those who murder her sons."
What about hate propaganda among the Arab public in Israel?
"In Arab society in Israel, there are devout Muslims, haters of Israel, who are willing to lend a hand to violence. But they are a minority. One of Israel's greatest achievements is that no Arab underground was established here. There were Jewish undergrounds, and Jews killed a Jewish prime minister, but there was no Arab underground. I see this as an achievement.
"On the other hand, I have seen with my own eyes new currents in Arab society, which understand the universal experience of human rights. There is today a great debate in Arab society about the treatment of gays, or about women's rights and murder against the background of family honor. World significance.
"In the last ten years, we have seen incredible phenomena. There are many Arab judges, partly thanks to Ayelet Shaked. The chairman of the board of directors of Bank Leumi is an Arab-Muslim and a lecturer at IDC.
The corona projector is Arab-Israeli.
There are Arabs everywhere.
But we have an international problem here, and if we continue the occupation indefinitely, it will isolate Israel and put it in an impossible situation. "
Will a government led by Bennett bring about the change?
"First of all, I think it is much much better than the previous government. The previous government was a joke of inaction and destruction of the courts. A person can be critical of a certain decision, I also share it, you could say a change in the justice system is needed, but from the day it was filed against Netanyahu indicted, he started attacking the justice system, which is impossible.
"I myself have a critique of specific judgments, of technical matters like judgments that are too long, tedious and repetitive. It should be remembered that there are courts in the world whose judgments are short, like in France. Two or three trials, and that is it. But the courts in Israel are At a very high level, perhaps the highest level of jurists.
"The attack on the judges was a very big mistake by Netanyahu, and it calmed down because of the new government. He made mistakes that are difficult to understand, in a short period of time. For example, the fact that he kicked Gantz out.
"To see Netanyahu get up from his chair, and be replaced by someone else - this is democracy at its peak. I did not believe it could happen in the current circumstances. As long as Netanyahu is on the ground, this government will last. If he retires, what I do not believe will happen, this government will not hold. status".
Many of your traveling companions are no longer alive. Do you miss
"Most of my friends are in the grave, or sick, and I miss them very much. But this is the way of the world. 'Judgment is the main thing,' as Shakespeare said. I think a lot about Shulamit Aloni, she is missing in our political landscape today, because of her rebellious spirit. She was a unique type, I liked her gymnastics.
"At the end of his life, Yossi Sarid made a left turn, which I did not understand. When I met him, he was both a leftist in his lawsuits and a security expert with extraordinary speech and writing skills, and a great scholar. He is sorely lacking in Israeli politics. 120 people. A friend of his told me: 'This is the Israeli left.' "
Rubinstein (third from the right) and his friends from the DS party in a meeting with President Ephraim Katzir, 1977. "I think about politics every day," Photo: Saar Yaakov GPO
"When there are minorities, there are problems"
More than a quarter of the composition of the Supreme Court will be determined in the coming weeks by the Judicial Appointments Committee. What do you think of the committee?
"I think this is a straightforward committee, and I think it should be expanded from nine members to 13-12, to give representation to lawyers and others who are not from the narrow party sphere, for example, heads of local authorities or deans of law schools.
"We need a diverse composition, both of the committee and of the judges. I want to see more women and Mizrahis there. In Israel, the proportion of women in law is among the highest compared to other professions. In the Supreme Court, I think it is among the highest in the world. I do not think the gender difference justifies In the job market, because we know what talents women have and what stupidity men have.There is complete equality.
"As for the Mizrahis, 50 percent of my outstanding students at IDC are Mizrahi. Some do not even know what their origin is, it's a previous generation issue at all, but there are those who incite it time and time again. I think in a generation or two this issue will be completely off the agenda. This is also true of immigrants from Russia. "
What do you think about the reforms proposed by Justice Minister Gideon Saar?
"I agree with them, including a separation between the Attorney General and the State Attorney. I met with Saar, and advised him that it was time to carry out two major tasks: one - drafting a constitution; now there is an opportunity, because the ultra-Orthodox are not in government. absurd.
"I myself am not active in promoting a constitution, but I believe in the idea for one simple reason: Israel has no permanent borders and no permanent arrangements. The constitution has a psychological effect. 'Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty' contributed to Israel in an explanatory way, And 'Democracy' and 'Human Dignity and Liberty', and I'm very proud of that. The law has changed our life in the country.
"Also on the issue of violence in Arab society, I suggested two things. First, that anyone who knows about illegal weapons be required to provide the information. Second, that we learn from New Zealand. There, carrying weapons, including machine guns, was legal, and their prime minister, a nice young lady, fought. In the illegal weapon when she offered to buy it.It was very successful.
"So it is true that New Zealand and Israel are different, but even there there is a native minority, the Maori minority, part of which is very radical, and wherever there are minorities - there are problems. I hope Saar will adopt it."
With Yossi Sarid, 1995. "At the end of his life, he made a left turn, which I did not understand," Photo: Avi Ohayon GPO
Are you tickled to return to being a minister?
"It tickles me to be interior minister or finance minister for three months. No more."
Why only for three months?
"In three months you can fix what needs to be done. I do not want to be a permanent minister. The Ministry of the Interior has a lot of flaws, political and administrative. There are a lot of unnecessary institutions that can be closed, and the whole bureaucratic process needs to be simplified.
"In the Ministry of Finance, I would correct the issue of land prices. The housing problem can be solved by increasing the supply of land. Not waiting for full planning, but also selling unplanned land, flooding the economy. All over the country, not necessarily in the center.
"A lot of things can be solved. We have a law-abiding society, very constructive, it proved it during the Corona time, and things can be done here that cannot be done in other countries. We have a problem of disagreements, especially between secular and religious, but it can be solved. The issue of civil marriage can also be resolved. "
Do you miss the Knesset?
"The Knesset is an arena, and in this arena the ultra-Orthodox and part of the Likud lowered the level of discussion to a bottomless pit. I stopped understanding the ultra-Orthodox. I understand that they want a separate lifestyle, but there are limits to a separate lifestyle. "Or for multiculturalism. We see what happens to ultra-Orthodox publics in other countries, where they learn the core. Not here."
Horowitz.
"Impressed by him", Photo: Oren Ben Hakon
"The student is a partner"
He is clear, razor sharp, his voice is firm and clear, and it is evident that even today he is able to stand in front of a class, lecture on a constitutional sentence and answer questions until the last student goes home.
In 2002, after retiring from the Knesset, he was appointed dean of the Radziner School of Law at the IDC Herzliya.
In 2006, when IDC President Prof. Uriel Reichman briefly entered politics, Rubinstein was appointed his successor.
"IDC is an institution that is all young, and I started it at an older age," he smiles.
"At first I had fears, that they would say 'what is this old man doing here.'
"I always believed that the student is a partner. He is not a client, he is a partner in the effort. The Israeli student is an adult. He comes to study after the army, and he already has responsibilities. Sometimes he is married, or working for a living, and I look at him as a partner. Not only knowledge of law, but also a worldview and a liberal lifestyle, which is probably successful.
"I have always had exceptional collaboration with my students, and they succeed. They go out and study for doctorates and postdoctoral fellowships, some of them are all over the world - doctors, professors, doctoral students. I strongly believe in the younger generation, and if I have optimism - it stems from the generation. This one will come to power. "
Many of the brilliant minds are leaving Israel.
"Brain drain is also related to the fact that there were no colleges in the country. Israel was small on the successful, and the talent here is greater than the absorption capacity of Israeli society. I have no doubt that the establishment of colleges helped prevent brain drain in certain professions, certainly in law. ".
With Prof. Uriel Reichman.
"Feels a partner in the achievement of turning IDC into a university," Photo: Oren Shalev
The establishment of the academic colleges was one of the reforms that Rubinstein promoted during his tenure as Minister of Education from 1996-1994.
Two months ago, the IDC became the first private university in Israel - "Reichman University".
"I feel a partner in this achievement. There is such a trend in the world to follow in the footsteps of the United States, and not to adhere to the method that every university is public.
Prof. Reichman and I have been in a long-term relationship.
When I was dean of the Faculty of Law in Tel Aviv, he was a lecturer there, a young doctoral student.
He is a first-rate academic pioneer. "
"Proud of the Hebrew revival"
His wife, Adv. Roni Rubinstein (88), is the granddaughter of Yaakov Shloshe, one of the founders of Tel Aviv. She had a stroke three years ago, and is now hospitalized at Ichilov Hospital due to pneumonia. Merlin, Roni's dedicated caregiver, also lives with the couple. .
"Roni makes me happy from the day we met in 1956 at the Faculty of Law in Jerusalem, on the eve of Operation Kadesh. We went out together for defensive excavations at Kibbutz Afikim. It's a guy who won't get married. '
"In my opinion, there are three stages in a relationship: the stage of falling in love, which is related to sexuality of course; the stage of starting a family, which is not an easy task; and the stage of insurance, when one helps the other to survive or recover. .
They are the parents of two, Tal (60), who lives in England, is married and the mother of three sons;
Vanir, 58, who is named after his father's uncle, a Irgun member, and lives in Tel Aviv, is divorced and has a son.
What is the secret of your energy?
"I take care of myself. Doing sports twice a week with a trainer who comes to my house, training with springs of different weights. In the past Roni and I used to go swimming together, and without it it was hard for me, so I stopped. And in general, I'm not crazy about gymnastics.
"I read, watch TV and learn something new every day. I love to read, I really like Alterman's songs. I admire Bialik as much as I admire Shakespeare, he is so diverse.
"One of the things I am most proud of in Israel is an unparalleled achievement, the revival of the Hebrew language. We have wonderful literature. When David Grossman received the Boker Prize, I was very proud. I do not know him, but I read everything he wrote. I also admired Amos. Oz, I think there was something about him that made him a great writer. "
With his wife Roni.
"Makes me happy from the day we met," Photo: From the private album
He has not been able to get to the theater in recent years ("I haven't been to a show in three years, because of my wife's condition"), but he enjoys and gets excited about classical music, and even more so opera.
"I'm crazy about opera. Good opera does things to a person. It's an experience beyond music.
"I used to be the chairman of the Israeli Opera, and I saw every production of them.
I'm a follower of Mozart's operas.
'Figaro marriage' is in my eyes one of the greatest experiences.
Few people today love opera, it excites me. "
Are you proud of the country?
"Very, there is a lot to be proud of. Nevertheless, a Jewish majority with an Arab minority, who mostly belong to the Middle East, live here. During the recent events in the cities involved, there were many bodies that demonstrated brotherhood and cooperation, which is rare. Israel is more liberal today than it was founded. There is no problem with the right to abortion here, the treatment of gays has changed from end to end, except for the issue of marriage, Israel is one of the most advanced countries in the world.
"In terms of the war on corruption, I place Israel high. I am always afraid of countries where there is no news of corruption. Corruption is an international blow. Unfortunately, in recent years, the phrase 'austerity' is almost non-existent here. For real, and a monetary return was transferred, it is corruption that puts us in a very high place in the corruption index, and therefore there should be a state commission of inquiry into this matter.
"There were also some big misses in Israel. One is the decision made with the establishment of the state, to pass a constitution in stages, without allocating time to it. This was a mistake. The second is to give religious authority in marriage law.
I know it is difficult and problematic, but I would like to see a gradual process, as was the case with the Druze, also with the Israeli Arabs. "
Is there anything you regret?
"רק על כך שהלכתי לפוליטיקה באמצעות מפלגה קטנה. אם אתה רוצה לעשות מעשים גדולים, זה צריך להיות באמצעות מפלגה גדולה, שיש לה השפעה. מפלגה קטנה זה מגביל. ידעתי שזה לא יאפשר לי להגיע להישג גדול.
"למרות זאת, כיהנתי כשר החינוך, משהו שאפילו לא חלמתי עליו. שר חינוך זו השפעה בכנסת, ואני יזמתי הרבה מאוד חוקים לבדי. השיא שלי היה חוקי יסוד, ויש עוד חוק שלי, חוק ליברלי, 'חוק מטרות החינוך הממלכתי' (הכרה בזרמים השונים בחינוך במוסדות בישראל; ש"ז), שלצערי אינו מיושם. בבתי הספר הממלכתיים־דתיים מתעלמים ממנו.
"הייתי חבר בארבע ממשלות, מילאתי ארבעה תפקידי מפתח - שר התקשורת, שר המדע והטכנולוגיה, שר האנרגיה ושר החינוך, הנהגתי רפורמות בתקשורת, שהפכו את ישראל ממדינה מפגרת למדינה מתקדמת. אין לי מה להתלונן. אנשים מזהים אותי ברחוב. אתמול מישהו ניגש אלי ושיבח אותי על פעולותיי כשר החינוך".
מה חשבת על ההאשמות של קולט אביטל נגד שמעון פרס, על כך שהטריד אותה מינית?
"אני עוקב אחר הפרסומים. לא ידעתי שום דבר מזה, לא הייתי קרוב לפרס עד כדי כך".
"שקיעה במקום הוואי"
איך עברת את תקופת הקורונה?
"היה לי פחד אימים. כל בוקר הייתי משוכנע שיש לי קורונה ופחדתי שאגיע לבית חולים. הפחד שלי הוא לא מהמחלה ולא מהמוות, אלא מאשפוז בבית חולים בצורה לא אנושית. אני לא מפחד למות.
"אני מאמין שאנשי המדע, הרפואה והביולוגיה יפתרו את הקורונה, ונוכל להמשיך לעשות את השטויות שלנו. זה ייקח זמן, זו לא מחלה כמו מחלות אחרות, אבל זה יקרה".
יש לך גם זמן לנוח? לצאת לחופשה?
"מאז הקרוז שעשיתי לפני ארבע שנים באיטליה ובספרד, עם רוני וחברים שלנו, לא יצאתי לחופשה. גם כשהייתי שר לא יצאתי לחופשות, לא היה זמן. הייתי עובד לפעמים 14 שעות ביום. קראתי כל מסמך ובאתי מוכן לכל ישיבה, והכל בא תמיד על חשבון המשפחה.
"Our friends today are from two groups: those who survived and reached a late age, and those who are very young, that I can be their grandfather. I am optimistic that some will reach leadership positions, and then Israel will be in a better place. These are my former students, some are already professors."
What makes you happy?
"The sunset I see from my porch. It's an unforgettable sight, and I look at it almost every day. I tell Ronnie, 'This sunset is instead of a trip to Hawaii.'"
shirshirziv@gmail.com