SPIEGEL
: Ms. Baerbock, your party voted for the coalition negotiations with a large majority.
Nevertheless, there was also a lot of resentment about the previous agreements: no effective poverty reduction, no billions in investments in climate protection.
How great is the pressure that you have to get a lot more out of the negotiations?
Baerbock
: In order to make this industrialized country climate-neutral, billions in investments are required - and we will take this money into our own hands.
That is agreed.
There will also be a basic child protection scheme to finally bring children out of poverty - a huge success.
And we received great support for this departure at our party congress.
Nevertheless: An exploratory paper naturally only provides guard rails.
That is why we are now going into the depth of the content.
SPIEGEL
: Do you agree with your party colleague Cansin Köktürk, who said that the winner of the explorations was called the FDP?
Baerbock
: No.
Negotiations are always a give and take.
We as the Greens have been chosen for a real renewal.
This means that you cannot hide behind formula compromises when it comes to the big questions about the future.
A policy of the lowest common denominator would not mean progress.
All three parties had the courage to make decisions.
Together we have set the course for digitization, modernization of the country and climate neutrality.
SPIEGEL
: You need money for this upheaval.
But there should be no tax increases.
Now you are looking for detours so as not to violate the debt brake.
What do they look like?
Baerbock
: It is no secret that, for reasons of fairness, we would have liked to increase the top tax rate and, in return, have relieved middle and lower incomes.
But the FDP had other positions.
Investments are required for the important infrastructure measures.
We will therefore use the leeway that exists under the existing debt brake and take out loans, as every successful company does.
SPIEGEL
: The green successes in climate protection and social issues are subject to financing.
Many FDP successes, however, are already certain: no tax increases, no speed limit.
Baerbock
: With all due respect, that's not true.
The massive expansion of renewables, the exit from the combustion engine, the minimum wage of 12 euros, basic child benefits - to name just a few examples - are all agreed and not a "maybe".
SPIEGEL
: Last week, FDP leader Christian Lindner spoke of a political turning point and explicitly praised how the explorers treated each other.
On the same day, his general secretary Marco Buschmann said that Lindner should become finance minister.
Is the cuddling phase of the future coalitioners already over?
Baerbock
: It's better not to solve personnel
issues
in public.
And having conversations with trust does not mean that you hold yourself with kid gloves.
We are three parties who come from different directions and have different ideas about the content.
That is why it will continue to be the case in the future that one speaks Tacheles.
But we do that behind closed doors.
It is much more difficult to agree on the content when you only have the questions of power in your head.
SPIEGEL
: You are the chairman of a party that sees itself as feminist.
Will the Greens fill cabinet posts in such a way that, in case of doubt, there are more women than men?
Baerbock
: For the green parliamentary group, just under 60 percent women have entered the Bundestag.
We live equality.
But there will be no equal representation of women and men in the Bundestag or in a government if only one party takes care of it.
That is the task of an entire government and must be reflected there.
The great chance of this not so easy three-way constellation is that we make real socio-political progress.
A modern immigration law, a reform of citizenship law, a family law that takes social reality into account - all of this can be possible with this color constellation.
SPIEGEL
: And the quota for women in the future cabinet?
Baerbock
: If you have the claim to make laws that are state-of-the-art, equality and social diversity should also be a matter of course in cabinet formation.
SPIEGEL
: What do you think when your future coalition partner Christian Lindner tells Bild am Sonntag that the FDP is not concerned with equality in its own party and the allocation of posts.
Baerbock
: I don't interfere in the internal affairs of the FDP.
A government of progress should of course not orientate itself towards the last century.
more on the subject
Role of top politicians in the traffic light alliance: The missing gender by Milena Hassenkamp, Valerie Höhne, Christiane Hoffmann and Christoph Schult
SPIEGEL
: It's a simple calculation: If the SPD has equal representation in the cabinet positions and the FDP appoints two men and one woman, then it only becomes equal if you send more women than men into the cabinet.
Baerbock
: In the coalition negotiations, we still have a bunch of challenging questions ahead of us.
Solving these works the better, the less you rush to burden the process with invoices for items.
SPIEGEL
: Are you going to be Vice Chancellor?
Because Robert Habeck is not a woman.
Baerbock
: I can confirm that Robert Habeck is not a woman.
And I can also confirm that we agreed on everything together in a confidential conversation.
SPIEGEL
: The election result was not what the Greens had hoped.
What did you learn about yourself during this campaign?
Baerbock
: A lot about me.
And also about our country.
A young generation longs for political changes that are decisive for their future.
SPIEGEL
: What particularly disappointed you?
Baerbock
: Also a lot.
But now it's about looking ahead.
SPIEGEL
: You said that you had a special responsibility for the result.
What does that mean in concrete terms?
Baerbock
:
Turning
forward: To conduct these negotiations really well.
SPIEGEL
: There was little to be read in the exploratory paper about one of your body and stomach political issues, foreign policy.
What do you want to achieve?
Baerbock
: Germany must return to an active European foreign policy.
For a long time, there was no response from the federal government to Emmanuel Macron's last major reform proposals.
It is time for a new federal government to give Franco-German cooperation a new boost - and thus also a boost for Europe.
We need a foreign policy that is guided by values.
That is clearly anchored in this exploratory paper.
SPIEGEL
: You have always said that you would take a tougher stance with regard to China.
How would it look?
Baerbock
: Foreign policy must always take place on the basis of dialogue because the great global challenges such as the climate crisis must be viewed in a common world.
But willingness to enter into dialogue does not mean naivety.
In the areas where tough interests collide, this also means that Europe must defend its own sovereignty and security.
We are in a system competition with China.
That is why it is extremely important that we achieve new European strength.
more on the subject
German foreign policy under Merkel: she was called the leader of the free world - but what happened to this world? A balance sheet by Christiane Hoffmann
SPIEGEL
: Are you primarily referring to economic strength in order to reduce dependence on China?
Baerbock
: Also, especially in key technologies. We have to be able to build our own infrastructure, our own digital networks with European technology, in order not to run the risk that our citizens' data will be passed on to the Chinese regime and that we will become dependent on Beijing's political interests. It is similar with energy policy. We are dependent on Russia. There is currently no shortage of Russian delivery capacities for gas, but Russia has decided not to replenish the gas storage facilities. That makes us vulnerable to blackmail. And it shows that security and foreign policy are not just military issues.
SPIEGEL
: The exploratory paper says: "European energy law also applies to energy-policy projects in Germany." Does that mean that you want to prevent the use of the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline?
Baerbock
: That means that the requirements of European law must also be complied with for this energy project.
And they say that Gazprom is not allowed to own and operate the pipeline at the same time, i.e. to pass gas through it.
But that would currently be the case.
And that's just one of the reasons I known to think this pipeline is wrong.
It runs counter to European interests.
SPIEGEL
: A National Security Council was also discussed, but what would be the difference to the existing Federal Security Council?
Baerbock
: A reform of the Federal Security Council is urgently needed.
But before you create a new body, you have to agree on common guidelines for security and foreign policy cooperation.
In the future, security must be thought of as networked security.
SPIEGEL
: Should Germany withdraw from NATO's nuclear participation?
Baerbock
: Nuclear and conventional disarmament is central to greater security in the world.
Under the next federal government, Germany must play a leading role in the relevant disarmament initiatives.
SPIEGEL
: During the election campaign you said that the next government would be the last that could do something about the climate crisis. None of the traffic light parties has a program with which the Paris goal can be achieved. How is there going to be a compromise that leads to a 1.5 degree path?
Baerbock
: A lot of time has been lost in recent years.
So it will take a tremendous effort to even get on the 1.5 degree path, yes.
We are ready to make this effort and have set the most important guard rails in the exploratory paper.
But Germany is not isolated.
It is essential that we focus on European and international climate and energy partnerships.
We have to export the technologies for climate neutrality that we now want to develop in Germany and Europe.
What we can do nationally, we proposed in the election manifesto.
The exploratory paper contains central elements of this.
SPIEGEL
: Many observers of climate policy don't seem to have that impression.
Baerbock
: There is a fundamental change in energy policy in the paper.
That we achieve in the explorations that the coal phase-out law is reopened so that we can get out of coal as early as 2030 - that was hard work and is a milestone.
SPIEGEL
: The paper says that it will not be checked until 2026 whether the shutdown of coal-fired power plants can be brought forward, but in the legislative period that is now beginning.
It is not a guarantee that it will come to that.
Baerbock
: First: The difference between 2023 and 2026 is that the government that is now to be formed is finally acting.
Second: Just as the 12-euro minimum wage still has to be poured into law, this also applies to the coal phase-out.
And of course until then we need renewable electricity every minute around the clock.
That too will be a show of strength.
We put on an immediate program for this.
SPIEGEL
: In order to expand renewable energies quickly, you wanted solar systems to be mandatory on all new roofs.
There is no such thing now.
Baerbock
: Of course there are.
SPIEGEL
: The obligation only applies to commercial roofs, not private roofs.
There "it should become the rule".
Sounds pretty vague.
Baerbock
: No, that is very far-reaching.
Solar systems are becoming standard on new roofs, private or commercial.
That brings a big boost in the supply of renewable electricity.
The distinction between duty and rule is something for legal gourmets.
SPIEGEL
: And that is not your interpretation, but rather the common understanding of the three parties?
Baerbock
: Yes.
SPIEGEL
: You want to accelerate the expansion of wind power.
This only works if the federal states do not continue to set strict distance rules.
So will the countries be deprived of this opportunity?
Baerbock
: The suggestion is that there is a legal obligation to use two percent of the country's area for wind power.
Where exactly, the states are free to decide, even at a distance, but there must be enough space.
SPIEGEL
: There is another cryptic passage in the paper: There is talk of a cross-sectoral multi-year review of the climate targets.
Do you want to cancel the annual climate targets for transport, agriculture or energy, because otherwise they will be confronted with unpleasant figures in the next few years?
Baerbock
: Not at all. All sectors must continue to make their contribution to climate protection. In addition to the annual monitoring report, we want to strengthen two things. First: How do we take into account measures that do not have an immediate effect, but even more so in the medium term? The exit from coal, for example, will give a huge boost to the climate, but only in a few years' time - something like this should also be mentioned. Second, we finally need real sector coupling: every area has to make its contribution, but we have to dovetail the sectors much more closely. In the future, e-cars should not only use green electricity, but also act as storage. Such a thing needs to be carefully captured across the sectors.
SPIEGEL
: Why did you give up the speed limit on motorways?
For many it would have been a strong symbol of a different transport policy.
Baerbock
: The speed limit would have made a big contribution to road safety, but a small one to climate protection, we couldn't enforce it.
The end of the fossil combustion engine is decisive for climate protection in transport, and that will come now.
SPIEGEL
: The left wing of the Greens is primarily pushing for improvements in social policy.
Is that more important to the Greens than climate protection?
Baerbock
: Climate protection and social justice are mutually dependent.
You won't be able to make this country climate-neutral if you don't take everyone with you.
Therefore the future guideline is a socio-ecological market economy.
SPIEGEL
: Robert Habeck said on ARD about Hartz IV and gas prices: "Complete takeover always invites you to turn on the heating and open the window." Do you share this sentence?
Baerbock
: If I don't think about it, I'm afraid that I have opened the window with full heating.
The current high gas prices are a sensitive foreign policy issue and at the same time a real social burden for people on low incomes.
And the increase in Hartz IV rates by three euros, as we had them, was a joke.
Therefore we want to recalculate the rates.
SPIEGEL
: Mr. Habeck and you settled the candidate for chancellor in the back room, now it seems as if you are also clarifying the question of the vice-chancellor among yourself.
The result: your relationship is strained, the party annoyed.
When do you want to start getting the party back on track?
Baerbock
: Sorry, I come to a different analysis and experience the mood in the party, and especially between Robert and me, really different.
Regarding the question of the involvement of the party: Each member can decide on the coalition agreement including personnel in a ballot.
SPIEGEL
: Ms. Baerbock, thank you for this interview.