A few months ago, Yariv Levin chaired the Israeli parliament.
He sat in the office of the prestigious and spacious Speaker of the Knesset, traveled with an extended entourage, met with world leaders, and the right-hand man of former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was there in the most historic moments - in formulating peace agreements and fighting the US administration for sovereignty in Judea and Samaria. He is on the opposition benches in the Knesset, alongside Miri Regev and Aryeh Deri, without a spacious bureau, without an entourage, and deep in the political mud.
The chairman of the Likud faction and the opposition center leads a militant but not vociferous line in the struggle in the coalition, and also finds himself wrestling with his Likud members. , David Bitan, Nir Barkat, Yoav Galant, Gila Gamliel and Orly Levy Abacis.
MK Ophir Akunis was furious at the announcement and said: "It is unfortunate and embarrassing that messages from the informant have become routine in the Likud faction.
Certainly when they are inaccurate, because they came out while I was already in the building - and also in the vote!
The informant is an ugly and unnecessary tool and has never been part of the Likud's path. "
"I did it with great sadness but wholeheartedly," Levin says.
"There is no choice. We not only lost the same vote, we could have won several votes. Once we lost the chance to win, it encouraged the coalition. They see that the opposition is not cohesive.
"Sometimes a situation arises where someone who usually comes, can not get to the polls. Look, for example, David Bitan. He does a great job, he is dedicated. This time he was decent enough to say 'I was wrong.'
"In the proposal that made me publish the announcement there should have been a total of eight hours in the plenum all this week. If people are unable to be in the plenum eight hours a week, I can not accept that."
Did you publish the announcement on Netanyahu's instructions?
"In coordination with him, according to what he himself said at the faction meeting a week earlier (Netanyahu rebuked MKs who do not come to the Knesset and allow the coalition to get along in a vote without a struggle; YS). We have a responsibility to wage an opposition struggle. To vote, to fight. It is necessary to maintain the cohesion of the opposition. When MKs in the Likud do not come, it causes great anger in our partnership, it is impossible to run an opposition like that.
"When there are votes that are important to us, the whole partnership comes, and when there are issues that are important to them, we do not come."
why is it happening?
"It may be that the transition from ministerial positions to the status of Knesset members is difficult for some people. I was the Speaker of the Knesset, I know it is not easy, but that is our job.
It is no disrespect to sit in the plenum, to speak in the plenum, to submit proposals for order.
That's why we were chosen.
For that we get a salary.
I am not willing to accept that people say 'not for me' or 'I do not like' or 'I am not interested enough'.
Anyone who feels this way should leave the Knesset. "
Due to laziness?
"There can be laziness, there can be poor priorities, maybe just a lack of attention. But our responsibility is to be there and fight."
So you're the party's stinker?
"I do not accept this definition, everything is visible. My task is to recruit at least the 53 MKs from our bloc, who will stand together in cohesion.
If we do not do that, the coalition will continue to serve.
If you want to overthrow the government, everyone has to come.
I hope people learned a lesson from this case. "
"Constant struggle"
So what do the opposition do?
"A constant struggle to try to achieve two goals: one - to block moves that the government is making, that we oppose. So far we have succeeded well. Some we have succeeded in overthrowing, and there are government bills stuck, thanks to the long debates and filibuster we have made."
Are there things that if the government would give, would you pass? Suppose, Corona compensation?
"This government is not giving Corona compensation. It is hurting everyone. If it had submitted such an offer, we would certainly have helped it and made sure it progressed."
So why did you stop the Citizenship Law, which suits you ideologically?
"The vote on the Citizenship Law allows us to show the public the problematic nature of this government. The government wanted us to save it from the elements within it, and so it would appear to the outside world that everything is fine, the government is running. I think it is forbidden to save the government .
"Apart from stopping the government's moves, we are also making a great effort to go in and expand the cracks in the government to bring about its overthrow. We saw an example last week, when I asked Minister Ayelet Shaked in the Knesset, in which I see this government architect, To its values - such as the Electricity Law, the budget to the RAAM, the statements of Amar Bar-Lev against the settlers.
I told her, 'You pledged that if your values do not match what the government is doing - you will overthrow the government.'
She came under pressure from this question, it confronts her with the big lie of values. "
You have been accused that because of you Shirley Pinto had to come to the Knesset six days after the birth of her daughter.
"When Yehuda Glick's wife passed away (early 2018; Yesh), and they were in opposition, they did not agree to offset him.
Sharan Hashakel came to the plenum with an infusion (November 2018), because they did not agree to offset it.
The most annoying and outrageous thing was when at the beginning of the term MK Yitzhak Meir Halevi's sister died of a new hope, I said: although to this day the other side has not offset, let's set out on a new path, I offset it.
"No one can expect us to continue to give offsets. You can not break all the rules of the game, drive rapaciously, and then say - 'it's time to consider each other'. You can not take our representation on committees and then ask us to consider. They can only complain about themselves." .
"Their act was a scam to her name."
Bennett and Shaked, Photo: Oren Ben Hakon
"Everyone's home"
Not calm in the Likud. Netanyahu goes against Katz and Barkat, Amsalem proposes a law against Barkat, the storm with the new Likudniks.
"The Likud's situation is amazing, after losing and stepping down after 12 years. Most parties take time to recover, sometimes it takes years. In the Likud's case, public support since we are in opposition has only risen. Feel it in the street. The Likud is the largest party in the country. With large public support by a large margin from the other parties.
"The Likud has a big challenge, you are elected by 130,000 people, you have to spend time in field work, so naturally there are disagreements. There is a mosaic of people, and there are disagreements. That's what's beautiful about the Likud, that's what strengthens the Likud. ".
Perhaps the fact that people like Edelstein, Katz, Barkat, Regev, Dichter and others announce their desire to run for the Likud presidency creates a camp.
"What is required of us to change government is cohesion. I tell my friends that this talk of running for the leadership of the movement - whether today, tomorrow, or yesterday, before or after Netanyahu, is harmful, irresponsible and does not contribute anything. What is required of us is To stand behind Benjamin Netanyahu, who has brought tremendous achievements and will lead her to further achievements in the future. "
Would you expect them not to announce their political aspirations?
"Unequivocally. Not engaging in this issue, it is not helpful to them either."
They mark themselves for the future.
"Marking yourself does not contribute anything. You have to be elected, you are expected to be responsible and work on the important things - which is to act against the government and not engage in internal quarrels now. And it is achievable. "
Will you compete?
"I do not deal with it. It is irrelevant. There are those who think they should deal with themselves. I say this to July, to Israel, to Miri, to everyone."
Are you telling them they're harmful?
"Yes. In a sharp and clear way. It is unnecessary and harmful, for the Likud and them personally. It just creates controversy."
What is your principled position on the Barkat law (limiting the use of equity for political purposes), which shook the Likud and the coalition this week?
"It is important to bring people from all walks of life into politics, including people who have succeeded in business in private life. Do not see this as a flaw. On the contrary, a person who has succeeded and wants to do public work is positive and good. "It is unfair to its competitors. We need a right balance between the desire to attract good forces and the need to ensure an equal struggle."
How do you vote?
"do not know yet".
And what is your position on the use of the ethnic issue in the race for the Likud presidency?
"People who do it, do the most non-Likud thing that can be. It is fundamentally wrong. What is beautiful about the Likud, since the days of Begin, is that it is everyone's home. They look at the person, not the community or religion."
Exaggeration, this is the party in which the ethnic issue is particularly prominent.
"Not true. When Likud members go to choose their list, the ethnic consideration is almost non-existent."
At the end, they vote for Ashkenazi men, as in the top ten - Katz, Barkat, Galant, Edelstein, Arden, Levin.
"To associate me with such a category is neither true nor serious."
Are you not Ashkenazi?
"I was not elected because of my evening. I have never felt anything like this. This is a discourse that should not be held in the Likud."
Miri Regev said that "if the Likudniks continue to elect leaders with white DNA - there will be a real Mizrahi Likud."
"It would have been good if she had repeated these things. This is not the spirit of the Likud. Miri Regev was elected to a high place due to her abilities. There is no question of ethnic affiliation here."
How do you explain that a party whose power is in the periphery chooses an Ashkenazi leadership from Caesarea?
"All this discourse is foreign to me, far from me and infuriates me. People do not label themselves of ethnic origin from the periphery. They are citizens, they are Likud members, they love the country. They choose according to skills. The attempt to show that this dominant component shatters into the rock of results."
Maybe it's time to refresh the list?
"It's always good to refresh. It's nice to see new forces growing. Refreshment is important."
You do not think a star should be brought? Talent? Big name?
"Injecting new blood is always good, but in a dose. Of course not throwing out half a faction. I have always supported giving the movement's chairman the opportunity to reserve a small number of candidates.
Not only to refresh the list, but it is necessary when facing parties that make appointments by one person's decision, and have room to maneuver to make connections on the eve of an election.
We need such a tool. "
Is there a name you would bring?
"Do not see such a name."
What do you think about the attacks against former Mossad chief Yossi Cohen?
"There is a deliberate attempt here to harm a person who is recognized as having the potential to be part of the Likud leadership in the future. The conduct of parts of the Israeli media is a great disgrace, a real sign of disgrace."
Is he being attacked because he is close to Netanyahu?
"Anyone who belongs to the right or has the potential to strengthen the right of the right to come to power - there are sections of the media that automatically mobilize to discredit him, harm him, blacken his face in any way, sometimes while saying things that are not true.
"On the other hand, there are marvelous statements like Dana Weiss 'Isn't it time in 2021 to stop dealing with the prime minister's wife?' Do you understand? Every path and conduct is shameful. "
Will Yossi Cohen join the Likud?
"You have to ask him. I will accept him with open arms, he has something to contribute, he is a person with extraordinary rights and abilities. We need to strengthen the Likud with good forces, with people who have something to contribute."
"Rights and Capabilities".
Yossi Cohen, Photo: Yehoshua Yosef
"Terrible injustice"
Are you closest to Netanyahu?
"I feel close to him. It is a great privilege to work alongside him for many years."
Do you talk a lot?
"Some days we talk many times a day, some days we don't. Depending on the agenda."
Also friendly conversations? About the family? Children?
"Less. The load of things we have to deal with keeps us very busy. Sometimes we talk about English or Spanish football. When there were long meetings at night and a Champions League game was televised, we would watch together."
Does he enjoy life a little? Have time to breathe, do sports?
"Whoever is looking for time to breathe and do sports, has nothing to look for in political life. It is true that a certain period of time after so many years allows you more time for family, which is good, but the goal is not to sit in opposition."
"When there were long meetings at night and a Champions League game was televised, we would watch together."
With Netanyahu in the Knesset, Photo: Yossi Zeliger
He's not talking about retirement?
"To me he did not say anything like that. On the contrary, I see him working hard."
Is he towards closing a plea deal?
"I do not feel it, but we are not dealing with this thing. From a political point of view it is focused on replacing the government."
Is he bothered by the trial?
"We hardly talk about it. He kept knowing what we all know now - that there is nothing in these cases. That it is a scandalous incident of cases for non-existent offenses. There are false leaks, witness threats, a completely wrong decision-making process and irrelevant motivations. .
"It's like the details revealed in Aryeh Deri's case are unacceptable conduct. This situation, which says, 'Let's leave a case open for years, because maybe something will suddenly pop up that will allow some charge to be filed' - suits dark regimes. Aryeh Deri has been terribly wronged, "Netanyahu was done a terrible injustice."
Why do you think this happened to them?
"A combination of two things: one - the justice system is controlled by a minority group, many of whose people have radical leftist views, and they find it difficult to come to terms with the fact that the people do not support their positions. And the other - personal motivation. "Government, I will always remember as someone who managed to prosecute a prime minister, it will enter my record. If I say there is nothing, who will remember that I was in the picture."
Is that Mandelblit's motive?
"I do not want to put a name to it, the problem is systemic. Anyone who thinks that if we replace the Attorney General or the President of the Supreme Court, the problems will be solved - is wrong. There is a systemic problem, that they choose themselves. There is no control over them."
You have been in power for 12 years, you can only make complaints to yourself.
"We have failed miserably in this matter. I have struggled all these years for fundamental changes in the justice system, but to this day I have not been able to mobilize the majority to make such moves.
"Today there is an understanding that this is the most important thing, that if we do not address it, we have done nothing, and it will not be possible to run the country. I am convinced that today public understanding and demand for change are so strong that if we return to power, we will have 61 fingers to make that change. "In the coalition, there are quite a few people who understand that the situation is unbearable. Ministers see that they cannot work due to legal restrictions."
Do you think it was right to cancel the security of the Netanyahu family?
"The threats against the Netanyahu family are real. You do not have to be a great security expert to see what is going on on social media."
But this was the position of the GSS.
"I have great appreciation for the GSS, but sometimes there are mistakes and failures there as well.
The decision not to extend the security of the Netanyahu family is a great risk taken by some of the professionals, and a risk taken by government ministers, whose abysmal hatred of Netanyahu does not allow them to see a meter ahead and does not allow them to see the danger that exists.
I really hope nothing happens. "
There have been allegations that members of the Netanyahu family simply want to continue to enjoy driver and vehicle services, which come with security.
"It's not because of the vehicles. Point. There's a real problem, I suggest not underestimating it.
"It's like for years they talked about the residence in Balfour being great, and that the Netanyahu family has all kinds of demands. Everyone who was there knew that the place was a disgrace. Suddenly Bennett arrives, and tens of millions are invested. Suddenly renovations are made in Bennett's honor. .
"Disgust at elections"
Four times you failed to form a government, and the polls do not really change. How do you plan to return to power?
"The great Menachem Begin went through eight elections in which he lost, until he managed to win for the ninth time. It is impossible to be short-sighted and patient. Netanyahu brought the Likud to power for 12 years in a row. "We are in power. Even today we get at least 30 seats, this is an amazing result, unparalleled stability in the political system. We need a little patience. There is a great chance that we will return to power under Netanyahu's leadership."
but how? What will change?
"The biggest problem with the election was that many of the Likud members did not come to vote. I hear them today saying that they made a mistake."
Did they not understand it the first time? the second? The third?
"There was disgust at the election. A feeling that even if another government comes, it will not be the end of the world. Today we see what another government means. If we reach high voter turnout in our public, it will be enough to change the whole picture.
"In addition, the longer this government continues to serve, the greater the disappointment from it. Deception, as Shimina did in the last election, will not be repeated. The polls show that the Likud is getting stronger, the bloc is getting stronger. I am optimistic".
Without Netanyahu, you can form a government.
"This is not true. This working assumption that if Netanyahu is not, everyone will give up their desire to be prime minister or hold power and give it as a gift to the Likud, is wrong. Bennett and Saar pursue personal politics, they have no interest in putting anyone from the Likud. The Likud will disband completely. "
Is there a situation where you will be sitting with Bennett and Shaked in the future?
"I do not believe in disqualification. I have not disqualified anyone, assuming he is willing to sit in our government, which is acting in our way."
So after all the slander and quarrels, can Bennett and Shaked be partners?
"In the next Bennett, Shaked or Saar government will not be our partners, because they will not pass the blocking percentage. They will not be relevant."
ואם יעברו את אחוז החסימה, הם יהיו מוקצים?
"אני לא שולח אף אחד מעבר לגדר. הממשלה צריכה להיות בהובלת הליכוד ונתניהו. מי שייכנס לכנסת ויהיה מוכן לקבל את הדרך שלנו - נהיה מוכנים לשבת ולנהל איתו מו"מ. אם בנט, שקד וסער יעברו את אחוז החסימה, הם ילכו לממשלת שמאל. הם לא רוצים לבוא אלינו".
אתה רואה את עצמך יושב עם בני גנץ?
"הוא יכול להיות שותף בממשלה, אבל ראש הממשלה צריך להיות נתניהו".
נתניהו מוכן לתת לו את ראשות הממשלה אם הוא מפרק את הממשלה הנוכחית.
"אם דעתי תישמע, אני חושב שאין מקום להקים ממשלה שבני גנץ עומד בראשה. זו עמדתי האישית, צריכים להקים ממשלה שתאפשר לנו לפעול על פי דרכנו. אין סיכוי לעשות שינויים במערכת המשפט עם בני גנץ".
סער ואלקין יכולים לחזור לליכוד?
"לא. דלת הליכוד חסומה בפניהם. הם ייעלמו בבחירות".
שיתוף פעולה עם ליברמן בא בחשבון?
"הוא לא מוכן לשבת בממשלה בראשות נתניהו. האחריות לכך שלא קמה ממשלת ימין בסיבוב הראשון היא על כתפיו".
עמיחי שיקלי יצטרף לליכוד?
"הוא דוגמה ומופת לאיש ציבור, עומד על ערכיו, מוכן לשלם מחיר. אני רוצה לראות אותו ואנשים ערכיים כמוהו בליכוד".
מדברים איתו? מקדמים את זה?
"לא. לא מנהלים כרגע דיונים איך תיראה רשימת הליכוד. השאלה היא אם הוא מעדיף לצאת לדרך עצמאית או להצטרף לליכוד. הוא אדם נקי, ישר והגון, בשונה לגמרי מחבריו לסיעה, שהתנהלותם היא חרפה".
אם איילת שקד, ניר אורבך או מישהו אחר מפילים את הממשלה - יש להם מקום בליכוד?
"לאיילת שקד אין מקום בליכוד. אם נידרש לקבל לשורותינו ח"כ בודד כדי שזה יאפשר את הפלת הממשלה - המחיר הזה יכול להיות שווה, בנסיבות מסוימות. בנוסף, אני לא גוזר גזירה שווה בין שקד לאנשים אחרים. האחריות של שקד להקמת הממשלה הזאת גדולה יותר משל כולם, ולכן אני מתנגד בכל תוקף להצטרפותה לליכוד".
בתור יו"ר הכנסת לשעבר, מה אתה חושב על התנהלותו של היו"ר הנוכחי, מיקי לוי?
"זה תפקיד קשה ומורכב, לא ראוי שאמתח ביקורת. התפקיד של יו"ר הכנסת הוא לדאוג שכללי המשחק יאפשרו לכנסת לתפקד. בסוגיית החלוקה השוויונית של הוועדות, למשל, מיקי לוי עשה מאמץ למנוע חלק מההחלטות של הקואליציה (שלא לתת את הייצוג המגיע לאופוזיציה; י"ש), אבל מהרגע שהדברים נעשו באופן שנעשו (לא ניתן לאופוזיציה ייצוג מתאים), הכנסת לא שבה להיות כנסת כמו שהיא. הכנסת היום שונה מאוד מהכנסת בתקופתי, היא במקום מאוד לא טוב".
"הכנסת היום שונה מאוד מאשר בתקופתי, היא במקום מאוד לא טוב". מתחלף עם ח"כ מיקי לוי בתפקיד יו"ר הכנסת ביום השבעת הממשלה, צילום: חיים צח / לע"מ
"טעות טקטית"
אם היית יו"ר הכנסת ומישהו היה קורא לך "סמרטוט רצפה", מה היית עושה?
"לא הגעתי למצב שיקראו לי קריאות כאלו. העובדה שניהלתי את הבית באופן ששמר על זכותם וכבודם של כולם מנעה את הדבר הזה".
כשאתה שומע שמכנים את יו"ר הכנסת "סמרטוט רצפה", זה לא עושה לך קווץ'?
"אני חושב שביקורת נוקבת צריכה להישמע בשפה מכובדת וצריכה להיות לגופו של עניין, ולא לגופו של אדם. אבל אני מכבד את זה שיש אנשים שחושבים שצריך לומר את הדברים בצורה בוטה יותר. אני לא שופט. לי יש את הסגנון שלי. אני לא משתמש בביטויים האלה, אני מביע את הביקורת שלי בדרך שלי".
מה אתה חושב על שלל ההתבטאויות של דודי אמסלם?
"הוא אחד האנשים שזועקים זעקה אמיתית. יש לו כאב אמיתי. אמסלם הוא חבר כנסת מצוין, היה שר מצוין, אדם אמיץ עם יושרה יוצאת דופן. יש לו את הסגנון שלו, יש לו את היכולת לומר אמת ללא מורא ופחד. זה לא דבר רוֹוח בפוליטיקה הישראלית. במקום לעסוק במי אמר למי ובאיזה אופן, צריך לשאול איך הגענו למצב שהכנסת והדמוקרטיה נמצאות במצב הזה".
יחסית לחבריך אתה פחות תוקף את הממשלה.
"אני תוקף אותה כל הזמן. רק לא באותה טמפרטורה ולא באותם ביטויים".
לא שמעו אותך קורא לראש הממשלה "נוכל".
"המעשה שעשו בנט ושקד זו נוכלות לשמה. אני תוקף את הממשלה יותר מכל אחד אחר".
מנסור עבאס אומר ש"מדינת ישראל היא מדינה יהודית". אז אולי הוא בכל זאת היה יכול להיות פרטנר טוב לממשלה שלכם?
"להקים ממשלה עם רע"מ זה טירוף מוחלט, אף אחד לא העלה בדעתו לעשות את זה. אני לא מצטער על זה לרגע. אמנם חשוב לשתף את הנהגת הציבור הערבי בנושאים שקשורים למגזר הערבי, כמו הפשיעה, אבל בין זה לבין הקמת ממשלה שנשענת עליהם יש מרחק גדול. זה דבר מטורף, הפקרות לשמה".
נתניהו הלך לשבת עם הבדואים בדרום, אנשיו דיברו עם רע"מ.
"ניסינו לשכנע את רע"מ לא לחבור לממשלה בצד השני. בשום שלב לא העלינו על דעתנו להקים ממשלה שנשענת על רע"מ. בעניין הזה לא היה לנו ויכוח עם סמוטריץ', היתה הסכמה. בשיחות איתו אמרנו בפירוש שאין שום היתכנות להקים ממשלה שנשענת על רע"מ, זו ממשלה שלא תוכל לתפקד ולהחזיק מעמד, ותפקיר את ביטחון ישראל.
"אבל ההצהרה של סמוטריץ', שלא תהיה ממשלה עם רע"מ, היתה שגיאה גדולה, טעות טקטית במשא ומתן, שסידרה לבנט את האפשרות להצדיק את המהלך שלו".
עכשיו אנחנו גם מגלים שהיחסים עם טראמפ לא היו טובים כל כך. בספר של ברק רביד מספר טראמפ שהוא עצר את הריבונות.
"הנושא הכי חשוב, שבגללו אני נמצא בפוליטיקה, הוא חיזוק האחיזה שלנו בארץ ישראל. זה החזון הגדול, הדבר הכי חשוב שאפשר לעשות בדורנו. מה שהצלחנו לעשות מול ממשל טראמפ היה הישג אדיר בקנה מידה היסטורי. פעם ראשונה שנושא הריבונות עלה על השולחן כמדיניות רשמית של מדינת ישראל. פעם ראשונה שהממשל האמריקני דן איתנו ברצינות על זה.
"אמון גדול". טראמפ, צילום: אי.אף.פי
"היינו על סף הישג היסטורי של החלת ריבונות על כל היישובים ביו"ש, הישג ענק. אבל מצאנו את עצמנו במצב בלתי נסלח, שרבים מהנהגת ההתיישבות, במקום לבוא איתנו ולעשות הכל כדי לנצל את ההזדמנות הזאת, פעלו כדי לסכל את המהלך הזה. הם טענו טענה שקרית, שכביכול הסכמנו לכך שתקום מדינה פלשתינית.
"The Americans told us that even the settlement leadership did not want this, and made a U-turn. This is a terrible thing. The one who stood at the forefront of the struggle for our shame was the chairman of the Yesha Council. Where were many of the settlement leaders? .
According to the book, Trump also cursed Netanyahu.
"The presentation of the interview was trending. There was great trust between Trump and Netanyahu. Of course there were disagreements, but the end result was amazing for both of them. Trump, Netanyahu and the Arab leaders changed the Middle East, brought a huge change. They deserved the Nobel Peace Prize. It seems to everyone that they did not win the Nobel. "
shishabat@israelhayom.co.il
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