"Having a sensor on the head will be de rigueur in 10 years, just like now everyone has a smartphone"

The engineer Darío Gil, world director of the IBM research area, and the neuroscientist Rafael Yuste, from Columbia University, photographed in Madrid.Santi Burgos

Two Spanish experts were at the White House in Washington at the beginning of November, summoned by the United States National Security Council. The neuroscientist Rafael Yuste, professor at Columbia University, and the engineer Darío Gil, world director of IBM's research area, warned at the residence of the US president of the imminent arrival of a world in which citizens will connect to the internet directly with the brain, through caps or headbands capable of reading minds. In that hypothetical future, an algorithm will be able to autocomplete the imagination, as word processing computer programs already do with words. The first devices, still rudimentary, could be on sale in 10 years in electronics stores,according to the calculations of these experts.

Yuste, a 58-year-old from Madrid, and Gil, a Madrid-born born in Murcia 46 years ago, are two of the protagonists of the latest documentary by German filmmaker Werner Herzog, a journey through the astonishing frontiers of neurotechnology and artificial intelligence.

The film, with the provisional title of

, ends in Chile, the country that three months ago became the first to protect the brain information of its citizens in its Constitution.

Ask.

What are the implications of these technologies?

Rafael Yuste.

The most important implication is that the nature of the human being will change.

We are going to become hybrids.

This is something that will happen yes or yes.

I have not the slightest doubt.

Q.

What is being a hybrid?

RY

Now you depend on your mobile phone to do more and more things: find a street, call, use the calendar, the phone book, the calculator ... In reality, the only thing the phone does is connect to the network. This connection, instead of being on the phone in our pocket, we are going to have it directly in our heads, through a brain-computer interface. These interfaces will possibly be non-invasive and will be massively distributed to the entire population. And this will shift an increasing part of our mental processing abroad. Memory, for example. An external memory will send us the information back. And that is going to be beneficial in the sense that it is going to give a boost to the cognitive and mental capacities of humans. Now there is a gap between the people who have access to the digital world and the people who don't.If you don't have a mobile phone, it becomes difficult to do simple things like go to the doctor or make a money transfer. Well, this is going to be a much bigger gap. There will be people who will be augmented and people who will not. And that will change the human species.

There will be people who will be augmented and people who will not.

And that will change the human species

Rafael Yuste, neuroscientist at Columbia University

Q.

What year are we talking about?

RY

It depends.

It will be a gradual thing.

Devices and applications will first arrive that will allow us to record and decipher mental activity.

We are talking about 10 years.

Q.

With headbands or how?

RY

With headbands, with caps or with helmets. The first important applications may be, for example, for mental writing or for simultaneous translation. Imagine that you arrive in a country, with your headband: you think in your language and you have a speaker that speaks the other language. And of course, since humanity is what it is, the first thing will be games and porn. And then, 10 years later, I believe that technologies will come to introduce information into the brain, which is always more difficult. And there the mental augmentation will really be. If you want to finish the sentence you are thinking of, an algorithm will finish it for you, just like now when you are writing it will autocomplete it for you. Imagine that you complete it not only with what you want to write, also with what you have to buy in the supermarket, what partner you want to find,what to say to the people you are talking to. If you spoke to a person now and had access to everything they have done in their life, you could tell them something else that interests you. And, of course, he could drive or mentally operate any kind of machinery. I say that it will be a new renaissance, because the human species suddenly jumps up, connects to quantum computers [computers with a much greater computing capacity]. Imagine a quantum computer helping you decide where to invest or what career to choose. We are talking about a very different human species.he could drive or mentally operate any type of machinery. I say that it will be a new renaissance, because the human species suddenly jumps up, connects to quantum computers [computers with a much greater computing capacity]. Imagine a quantum computer helping you decide where to invest or what career to choose. We are talking about a very different human species.he could drive or mentally operate any type of machinery. I say that it will be a new renaissance, because the human species suddenly jumps up, connects to quantum computers [computers with a much greater computing capacity]. Imagine a quantum computer helping you decide where to invest or what career to choose. We are talking about a very different human species.

Q.

Still wearing a cap or headband or is it already a device implanted in the brain?

RY

It depends. A team from Stanford University this year has achieved that paralytic patients, who cannot speak, write as if they were writing by hand, but based on thinking, with implanted technology. That problem, technically, is already solved. In 10 years from now, if we talk about implanted technology, information can be entered back and forth. The implanted technology is much more powerful, but you cannot sell it in a supermarket, because you need a neurosurgeon to put it on you. It will always be in the medical field. The biggest ethical and social problem is the technology that is not implanted, the one that is not invasive, because it can be bought as if it were consumer electronics, it is not regulated, and it can reach the entire population.

It's going to be a new rebirth, because the human species suddenly jumps up, connects to quantum computers

Rafael Yuste, neuroscientist at Columbia University

P.

In the White House they are interested in the risks of this future.

Darío Gil.

There is a desire to advance neurotechnology itself, for very positive uses: in people with disabilities, the paralyzed, people who have a need from a medical point of view. And then there may also be applications that are not so controversial, but we must think about how we are going to manage and regulate them, especially the part that is a consumer electronic product. One can imagine very negative consequences: in the freedom of expression or in the freedom of conscience, for example. We can imagine interrogations in countries without any protection of rights, with the possibility of extracting knowledge directly from you. It can happen for years to come. We believe that there must be a dialogue, not only social, but also at the government level, that defines the use of this type of technology,to guide them on a positive path.

Q.

Do you think that thoughts will be read yes or yes?

DG

Yes, it is a matter of time.

From an invasive point of view, we know that it is possible.

Q.

And with a cap too?

RY

Sooner or later.

Neuroscience advances unstoppably and thought is generated by the brain.

The more we decode the brain, the more we decode mental activity.

The issue is not black and white, it is a continuum.

Right now with a cap I can find out if you are awake, if you are asleep, if you are attentive.

With a helmet, the better.

It could know which parts of your brain are being activated: the visual, the emotional, the sensory.

That today.

In 10 years, you will possibly be able to type [with your mind].

One can imagine very negative consequences: in freedom of expression or in freedom of conscience, for example

Darío Gil, global director of the IBM research area

Q.

What would this hypothetical brain-quantum computer union look like?

What could a human do?

DG

We are going to connect the brain to external computer systems. It's not just what's going to happen to artificial intelligence or what is going to happen to quantum computing or what is going to happen to the world of precise calculations, but what is going to happen to the combination of all of that. If you have a hyper-acceleration of computing power and you connect it in a very symbiotic way with the human being, it is a Cambrian explosion. Computing will help you expand your knowledge, your memory, your ability to calculate, to speak different languages, to understand physical processes. Imagine that you want to design a new battery for the electric car: it will expand your ability to imagine new molecules, for example.

RY

Humans are always afraid of what we don't know. When you walk into a dark room you are always a little worried if there is a monster. In this case, I would reassure people. What is coming is a positive revolution. Science and technology are the best tools humanity has to solve any problem. I sincerely think that this will be another tool that humans have made, just like fire, the wheel, the car, the printing press and nuclear energy, tools that have given us a push towards the future and we have ended up in a much better situation. than before. I think this will be the same. We will look back and think that we were a bit primitive before.

Q.

An experiment in the US in 2016 managed to find out that a person was thinking of a spoon. Can that already be done today?

RY

The answer is yes.

It's not easy, they have to put you in a good hospital scanner.

But, for eight years, if you think of an image, you get closer and closer to figuring out that image.

They show you photos and with each one they scan your brain to see which parts are activated.

And then they ask you to think of one of the photos they have shown you.

You think of the picture of the spoon, and since they already know how the brain responds, they know that you are thinking of a spoon.

If you are asked to think of a knife, even if you have not been taught a knife, an area that may be the spoon and another area of ​​a weapon is activated.

Then they can find out that you are thinking of a spoon that is not a spoon.

They are getting closer and closer.

And that's today.

DG

If you have billions of sentences and look for correlations between words, you can start to make language prediction systems with great fidelity thanks to artificial intelligence. The signals that exist in our brain have extraordinary complexity, but we can use neural networks [artificial models that try to emulate the information processing of the human brain] to extract the correlations, even if we do not understand it causally. As computing, computing power, manufacturing, semiconductors, sensors, and more improve, we will be able to decipher increasingly sophisticated things in the brain. And then there is the statistics. If there are many people connected to these types of sensors - some more invasive and others less -,in the end you can predict things even if it is a more rudimentary sensor.

Computing will help you expand your knowledge, your memory, your ability to calculate, to speak different languages, to understand physical processes.

Darío Gil, global director of the IBM research area

Q.

Could there be a device that passes like a metal detector behind your head and reads what you are thinking?

Or is it inconceivable?

RY

Physically, the signals are so weak that you have to have the sensor right next to the skull, for now.

I'm not saying it can't be like this in the future.

In the next 5 or 10 years it will have to be a cap or a headband.

Having a sensor on your head will be de rigueur in 10 years, just like now everyone has a smartphone because, if you don't have it, you are left behind.

It will be a very common thing.

Having the sensor in your head will allow you to do great things, but in principle you will also lose control of your mental data.

P.

Facebook and Google are in this business of connecting the brain to computers.

RY

There are all the big tech companies and many new ones. They are emerging like mushrooms, because they think it is going to be the new technological leap. [US businessmen] Elon Musk, Bryan Johnson… They want to be the first. On the set of Herzog's documentary, when we were in Seattle, we had dinner with Google's vice president and head of artificial intelligence. He showed us a demonstration of his new personal assistant, who according to him passes the Turing test: you cannot know that he is not a person. We were chatting with this show and it was amazing. It was like a conversation with an intelligent person and, moreover, very cultured, because he has access to all the information in the world. I was stunned, because it gave me the impression that we are going to have an assistant of these at the table,at dinner time with the family. And, on the one hand, it will be great, because it will be like a window to the world.

DG

Now a lot is being done. You generate natural language systems. In recent years we have been working with neural networks for classification issues, such as image recognition. But now generative models are being created: they create a text, they create dialogues, they can create images. The reflection is: what is a language? A language is, of course, language, but it can also be chemistry systems or programming environments. We have used these models to create chemical molecules. In the future, artificial intelligence is going to help you write the

, just as we are seeing sentence autocomplete systems.

RY

It's the perfect storm. On the one hand comes artificial intelligence, with these algorithms that pass the Turing test and you will have them telling you what to do. And this you connect with the brain. The connection we now have with the artificial intelligence algorithm, on the mobile phone, is still clumsy: with my little fingers, looking. Imagine connecting this with the human brain. It is an outbreak with very strong and profound repercussions: scientific, medical, social, economic and also national security. That's why they called us from the White House. It is inevitable that it happens, honestly. It is progress and it will be for the better, in general, but it will have very profound consequences.

We were chatting with Google's new personal assistant and it was amazing.

It was like a conversation with an intelligent person and, in addition, very cultured

Rafael Yuste, neuroscientist at Columbia University

Q.

When you talk about national security implications, what are you imagining?

RY

We never thought about this, but the US National Security Council called us for the first time a year ago, because they had learned that China was trying to merge artificial intelligence with neurotechnology and wanted a meeting to inform them about everything. we know about neurotechnology in China. I am not a national security expert, but I have heard that you are concerned that analysts have a brain-computer interface to connect directly to databanks. If you have access to everything that is being said today in Afghanistan or Syria, how can you identify what interests you? It is a huge problem. And it is very possible that it will be solved more quickly if you connect the person directly to the network. Other implications, of course, are robotic weapons,drone drivers connected together ...

Q.

Directly brain-drone?

RY

Several brains with a drone.

It would be a possibility that could improve the precision.

There are also hypersonic weapons, which are being made in Russia and China and shorten the reaction time for a nuclear war to 15 seconds.

The answer to that risk is to have artificial intelligence systems that, in less than 15 seconds, can decide if [the attack] is real or not.

DG

The convergence of technologies multiplies progress and consequences. You don't just have to do an analysis of the linear progression of each technology independently: semiconductors go there, miniaturization goes there, artificial intelligence goes there, neurotechnology goes there, quantum computing goes there. What people perceive less is what happens with the intersection, when you combine one technology with another and with another. That is less easy to predict. That's when you see exponential advances without people anticipating it. We are trying to understand the importance of these technologies, that the message reaches the highest level of decision. They are very important areas when it comes to investing and being at the forefront. And democratic societies have to decide what we want.Technology has trends and is advancing, which does not mean that it is impossible to guide. There have already been examples in previous technologies, such as nuclear or biotechnology, with which all kinds of regulations and self-management systems have been developed to say: "This way, less, and if you go you have to pass an ethical committee." That is not the whole Wild West.

We are trying to understand the importance of these technologies, that the message reaches the highest level of decision

Darío Gil, global director of the IBM research area

Q.

The Chinese and North Korean dictatorships make atomic bombs and nothing happens, even if there are committees.

RY

I believe that it is not true that nothing happens. There are very serious consequences. Some states are isolated. And not everyone who wants to can make the pumps in the garage. A lot of limitations have been set and there are very serious consequences, which is not to say that it is a perfect system. We do not strive for perfection. In the world of science and technology, if you are solving more problems than you are generating, it is at least a vector of progress. What we defend is that there be a much more active dialogue on these technologies, with scientists, companies, universities, with the government, to plan scenarios and anticipate ourselves. Governments don't control technology. Thats the reality.We have to invent another way to collaborate with the different actors who are responsible for creating this technology. What is the G7 of technology? It's not going to just be ministers and presidents talking to each other. It will necessarily involve the science and technology sector that is not part of the government.

P.

Could be IBM, Google, Facebook ...

DG

Many technology companies, universities, science centers.

It requires another series of actors around the table talking and contributing ideas.

And that must be invented, just as we have invented other institutions in the past.

We believe that neurotechnology is a good example when it comes to starting to define why this type of dialogue is necessary.

With technological things, people often do not know what we are talking about.

Neurotechnology can read what is in your brain and also write something in your brain.

It has implications that everyone can feel.

If we are able to illuminate one area clearly, we will be better able to illuminate other areas.

RY

We propose that neurotechnology be the spearhead for a deeper discussion on how to fit technology into the world.

As neurotechnology strikes the chord of the human being directly, many of us think that the logical thing is that the social response is to fit neurotechnology into existing human rights or to be designed.

And, with this piece more or less fitted, you can look with a new perspective at other technologies, such as artificial intelligence, which right now are very muddy and difficult to deal with.

This goes to the heart of what a human being is, to our mind

Rafael Yuste, neuroscientist at Columbia University

P.

One day in 2018, humanity had breakfast that genetically modified girls had already been created with the CRISPR technique in China and an international committee on genetic manipulation was created to decide what was right and what was wrong.

You suggest doing it with neurotechnology before a savage occurs.

DG

Yes, I think one can imagine the future.

It is not impossible to anticipate what can be done.

P.

Anticipen.

What will the scenario be like in 20 years?

DG

We know that there are signals in our brain that can be deciphered and also that new signals can be injected.

We know that this can be done invasively.

People drive cars thinking.

It is impressive what you can do.

One can anticipate a series of scientific and technological advances whereby what is invasive today is no longer so.

Q.

Are we talking about half a century?

20 years?

10 years?

DG

Some important things may happen in 10 years. There are many companies working on it. It is something that we are going to see in our lives. And before you get down that road, you have to start thinking sophisticatedly about this topic. With CRISPR [gene editing technique] there are ethical committees, to see what kinds of experiments can be done. But nobody talks about neurotechnology. At first it will be a video game or it will be used to type faster, but as time goes by, data from millions or billions of people will be added. The privacy of your thoughts may be in question and there may be opportunities for manipulation. Anticipating that future, we must see how to guide it.

RY

This is what they call Collingridge's dilemma: when a new technology comes out, you don't really know what it's going to be used for, but it's very easy to regulate it.

On the other hand, when it has already been implanted in society, you know perfectly well the negative consequences, because you are already late.

In the case of neurotechnology, especially fused with artificial intelligence, what is coming to us is very clear.

These are things that we already know how to do in animals.

And if it can be done in animals today, sooner or later it will be done in humans.

Why wait until it is too late?

This goes to the heart of what a human being is, to our mind.

The privacy of your thoughts may be in question and there may be opportunities for manipulation

Darío Gil, global director of the IBM research area

Q.

If you sat directly with the US president, Joe Biden, or with the Spanish, Pedro Sánchez, what new laws would you suggest?

You have proposed to treat brain data as if it were just another organ, like a kidney.

RY

I would tell Biden and Sánchez to have a scientist as vice president.

If the right hand of a prime minister is economics, the left hand has to be science.

Borges said that it is very important to think not only about what happens, but about what does not happen.

So you realize what is missing.

And I miss a scientific vice presidency.

DG

Technology is advancing at such speed and its consequences are so wide that it should be a fundamental part of how governments are managed, of how alliances are made between countries. There are commercial or military alliances between countries. I have no doubt that the next generation of alliances is going to be scientific-technological. That is going to have a series of very important consequences: what do you do, who do you collaborate with, who don't, who has access and who doesn't. What are the consequences if you violate a technology agreement and step out of line seven towns? All this goes beyond passing this law or this other. It must be incorporated as a central element in the concerns of each of our institutions. It is already happening in companies. Today, companies are what technology does the most.You may be in the automotive sector, but in the future cars are going to be computers with wheels. This, which is already transforming industries, will also transform governments.

You can write to us at