Ukraine talk: Will makes Klingbeil briefly skid: "Are you making a historic mistake?"

Created: 03/15/2022 05:18

Anne Will in conversation with Lars Klingbeil (SPD).

© NDR/ Wolfgang Borrs

"Attack on Ukraine - how can Putin's war be ended?" Anne Will asks Economics Minister Robert Habeck and SPD leader Lars Klingbeil, among others. 

Berlin – Anne Will* upsets SPD leader Lars Klingbeil in her ARD talk on Sunday with a hard question.

"Can it be," Will asks bluntly, "that you are making a historical mistake at the moment?" In the group, hesitancy on the part of the federal government in the Ukraine conflict* had just been reprimanded.

Klingbeil has to take a deep breath and starts to stutter before he says: "How should one answer the question?"

But Klingbeil finally finds an answer that speaks plain language without creating clarity: "The Federal Republic", "Europe", the "Western Alliance", according to Klingbeil, have "taken steps that were previously unthinkable" since the beginning of the war.

Nevertheless, you always have to “weigh: What can the next step mean?” Klingbeil names the federal government’s dilemma, for example in terms of a no-fly zone* or fighter jet deliveries: “NATO, the Bundeswehr as a war actor?

It's something I can't imagine and I don't think is responsible."

Ukraine talk on "Anne Will" on ARD: Habeck warns of Putin's triumph in the event of a hasty embargo

Economics Minister Robert Habeck (Greens), who gives Will a 15-minute individual interview at the beginning of the program, puts another argument for German weighing on the table: "It's not wise to do something you can't keep going," like Habeck.

"Saw off the branch you're sitting on".

Habeck means the much-discussed energy embargo against Russia.

Germany slows down on this issue.

One should "under no circumstances" give Putin the "triumph" of having to withdraw measures "because we can't get through them," warns the minister, but still concedes: "That's bitter, it's not morally nice either." he had already spoken to Markus Lanz last week.

"Anne Will" - these guests discussed with:

• Robert Habeck (The Greens)

  *

  - Economics Minister

• Lars Klingbeil (SPD)

  - party chairman

• Roderich Kiesewetter (CDU)

  - MP and former colonel

• Dmytro Kuleba

  - Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine

• dr

  Claudia Major

  - Head of the Security Policy Research Group at the Stiftung Wissenschaft und Politik (SWP)

• Katya Petrovskaya

  - writer, literary scholar and journalist

By the end of 2022, Habeck wants to have made the leap from Russian coal and oil*, in the best case also largely from gas.

But before it is cut off, the next step is to "severely tax or impose tariffs" on the excess profits that Gazprom also makes.

"Anne Will": Ukrainian Foreign Minister calls for more crackdown and leadership from Germany

Turn off the Russian gas tap immediately!

Deliver weapons and fighter-bombers!

See Putin as a threat to NATO!

Clear stance on joining the EU!

That is the mantra that the Ukrainian delegations and representatives, all the way up to President Volodymyr Zelenskyy*, are constantly repeating to Germany.

Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba, who is also connected from Ukraine, says it straight to the camera in "Anne Will": "You should admit that you made a mistake and correct this mistake." The Ukrainian appeals: "Stop Putin, because the Ukraine is not the last goal for him.

Believe me."

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For many Germans, an expansion of Putin's war to other territories in Europe is inconceivable.

But the political scientist Claudia Major no longer rules out an attack on a NATO state: "We don't know.

Nobody can predict that.” The security expert is therefore appealing for a radical rethink.

An "enormous change in mentality" is needed: "Because we actually thought we could live peacefully in Europe," said Major, but "that's no longer possible."

It is the "end of an era", a "turning point" in which we must now completely reconsider how "we can protect ourselves", how we "organize the confrontation in Europe".

Kuleba calls for Germany to take more action: "I would like to see Germany in a leading position with regard to the sanctions." helped to build up the current power of Russia.” He also reports on Russian combat vehicles currently deployed in the war in his country, the main parts of which were supplied by the German technology group Bosch.

Kuleba criticizes a German hubris: It is not "fair that Germany had a large-scale defense cooperation with Russia".

Kuleba calls for a rethink, it is “time that we all get what we need to defend ourselves”.

Ukraine war: dispute between Kiesewetter and Klingbeil over Nord Stream 1 and fuel prices

The CDU MP and former Bundeswehr officer Roderich Kiesewetter advocates strong sanctions and the end for Nord Stream 1.

But he is thwarted by Klingbeil, who objects that it is "prime ministers of the Union who are starting to collect signatures on the subject of fuel prices, making selfie videos in front of gas stations..." - "Tobias Hans", Anne Will calls the MP by name .

But Kiesewetter also counters, referring to Habeck's statements that it could be endured if "Russia" "turned off the tap".

"In Moldova, Romanians and Poland people argue far less timidly than here," says Kiesewetter, and calls for more action instead of reaction from the West: "We should make demands ourselves." Among other things, the withdrawal of medium-range missiles from Kaliningrad, the withdrawal of Russian troops Transnistria and Georgia.

"Can Ukraine win the war?" Anne Will wants to know.

The journalist Katja Petrowskaja is confident of victory and calls out a clear: "Yes" to the group, later adding "with an immediate embargo and immediate arms deliveries".

Expert Major is skeptical, assesses the situation militarily and comes to the bitter conclusion: "Then she probably can't win." But she doesn't want to accept the fact that the country is being sacrificed to the bitter peace in Europe as a solution: "A kind of occupation of the country" was "not at all sustainable", the "resistance" was too great.

The unresolved question is: "What comes after that?" Petrovskaya adds: "And at what cost?" It's not just "about Ukraine," she warns, "we're all already in this war."

Conclusion of the "Anne Will" talk

Is it fear or is it diplomacy?

Is it caution or lack of alternatives?

The assessments of the current situation differ.

Anne Will can't change that either.