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Markus Feldenkirchen, SPIEGEL
You said: "The only thing that interests my president, meaning President Zelensky or my ministers: 'Do you have weapons?'" What do you currently tell Mr. Zelensky about Germany's willingness to supply arms to Ukraine?
Andriy Melnyk, Ambassador to Ukraine
Well, Germany has taken a giant step forward since the beginning of the war.
To be honest, you have to say that.
And so do we.
And the fact that Kyiv did not fall, it must also be said in fairness that Kyiv did not fall, we owe that not only to the resistance of the Ukrainians, the fighting spirit of the army, but also to this military aid from the West.
Today, today we are facing a completely new threat situation.
Now, today, we not only need these light systems, we really need a heavy war machine.
Markus Feldenkirchen, SPIEGEL
Specifically?
Andriy Melnyk, Ambassador to Ukraine
Specifically, it's about tanks like the "Leopard".
Germany would be ready, and not just the Bundeswehr, but also the armaments industry, to deliver.
We need self-propelled howitzers, above all, that's the be-all and end-all, because now there's hardly any close combat like a few weeks ago, but the cities are being shot at from a distance: 30 kilometers away.
And we also need appropriate weapon systems.
We need infantry fighting vehicles like "Marder".
We're also trying to have this discussion.
We also need missile systems.
And we also need, and that is of course the most important thing, we need air defense systems that can really make our skies safer.
Markus Feldenkirchen, SPIEGEL
Ms. Strack-Zimmermann, as Chair of the Defense Committee, which of these demands can you say to Mr. Melnyk: Germany will deliver?
Marie Agnes Strack Zimmermann, FDP
Yes, we should also supply heavy weapons.
But, and now comes the but: People always talk about tank types.
You just said marten.
Your soldiers have to master this, otherwise they really become cannon fodder.
The Russians, I don't need to explain to you, are using unbelievable violence against Ukraine, including in this area.
It's not enough to put a few martens there.
These are systems that are complex.
You don't just push it over and someone gets in and drives off.
Unless you want to expose yourself to the danger of being immediately attacked.
It can't be that.
That's why I suggested that we don't deliver systems where we may have to train Ukraine first, but that Eastern Europe, our partners in Eastern Europe, still have a lot of Russian/Soviet material,
what Ukraine knows, what could be used immediately and, above all, could be traded.
And we compensate that with our European partners.
By the way, it's already working without revealing a secret.
There's already one or the other over there.
I think that's reasonable and I admit that if you communicated like that, I don't know how you see it now, but I see it very pragmatically: there's no point in delivering things where the soldier in Ukraine, the servicewoman is unable to use effectively immediately.
Andriy Melnyk, Ambassador Ukraine
We believe that if this decision had been made a few weeks ago, many Ukrainians would have been trained on these devices.
So I can understand the logic very well.
Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann, FDP
Yes, but where?
We couldn't have done it in Ukraine, then we should have done it here.
Andrij Melnyk, Ambassador Ukraine
Yes, that was our idea.
But unfortunately this communication, not with you, but with the Ministry of Defense, is very, very difficult.
Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann, FDP
Because you just mentioned the Ministry of Defence.
Markus Feldenkirchen, SPIEGEL
So you said that wasn't quite right?
Marie Agnes Strack Zimmermann, FDP
No, the communication is really bad.
And in general.
Look, we have a Ministry of Defense that can only make decisions about the weapons that are in the hands of the Bundeswehr.
What do you give away, what don't we give away?
The second is the Ministry of Economics, which decides whether the company can deliver XY weapons that you have in your yard, I'll tell you something about that in a moment.
The Foreign Ministry also has a say and we have the Federal Chancellery over there.
And that's the strand.
That's where the communication has to come from.
There's no point in running all the houses against each other.
And then you get hit by the minister.
One is a little better at selling with tears in his eyes, the other is perhaps a bit clumsy.
I don't want to comment further on that now.
The Federal Chancellor, the Federal Chancellery has to manage that.
It brings all paths together.
If you want to help Ukraine now with heavy weapons, Chancellor, the office, then the Ukrainian side has to do it.
Can also ran the defense industry.
I know some people don't really want to sit at the table with them, which I think is pretty stupid.
And on the other side then the relevant ministries.
But one has the hat on.
And the chancellor?
i appreciate him
He's doing his job and when you're elected and immediately afterwards there's a war in Europe, it's not that easy.
No question.
But he said: "You ordered leadership. Now comes the leadership" and that also applies to topics that nobody finds beautiful.
But it's like this: Without weapons,
Andriy Melnyk, Ambassador Ukraine
I would support that.
So what we might need after all the last few weeks: A crisis meeting in the Chancellery, where the Ministry of Defense is also present, of course, and also the armaments industry, representatives.
Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann, FDP
And Foreign and Economic Affairs Ministry Mr. Melnyk, without Mr. Habeck's signature there are no weapons.
Andriy Melnyk, Ambassador Ukraine Pull
all the strings together and now have this conversation seriously.
As I said, we don't want the moon to be pulled out of the sky and demand that from Germans, we just want to continue this discussion really honestly and seriously and see what is realistic and what isn't and also assume that.
Markus Feldenkirchen, SPIEGEL In
the end, it's all about an assessment.
Herr Melnyk had already said that this war could last for months, maybe years.
What is your assessment, Ms. Strack-Zimmermann?
How long will this war last?
Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann, FDP
I don't know.
I can't tell you.
I hope the horror will end soon.
And now and then we should already be dealing with it today, it may sound absurd to some, but that we are also there when it comes to rebuilding the country
Markus Feldenkirchen, SPIEGEL
And our relationship with Russia?
Marie Agnes Strack Zimmermann, FDP
Yes, that's deep in the bin for now.
And as long as Vladimir Putin is sitting in the Kremlin or in the bunker in the Urals, wherever he is, in my opinion, there will be no normalization.
Completely ruled out.
We don't know if someone else would come then.
In the very, very long term, the truth still applies that there can only be peace with all of us in Europe.
But with this clique and with this President, there will be no normality.
By the way, he should be brought to justice.
And then at some point we also talk about reparation claims.
By the way, that's more.
I hope that the whole clique around him knows that the Russians who, thank God, have now been expelled from Germany know that there is a Den Haag.
And I hope that many will be held accountable.
Markus Feldenkirchen, SPIEGEL
It must be difficult for you to look positively to the future given these brutal and cruel acts in your country.
Still, what would your scenario be for Ukraine in, say, ten years from now.
Andriy Melnyk, Ambassador Ukraine
For the future I see, or I wish, what the majority of Ukrainians wish for.
And that is already more than 90 percent today, namely membership in the European Union.
Today, when we are talking about the war, that hardly sounds possible or feasible.
But this idea of President Zelenskij, I think he floated it on the third or fourth day of the war, namely that we should start thinking today: when Ukraine may and can join the EU.
And of course, it is the case that Ukraine's membership can also bring added value for Germany.
We don't want to create problems, we want to solve the problems together with our German friends.
