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Anton Hofreiter, Alliance 90/The Greens
»As far as I can see, all democratic parties in Germany are united.
And I don't know of a single MP who disagrees, fully agreeing that we must not become a party to the war.
Everyone also agrees that there is no way we can fulfill Ukraine's wish to establish a no-fly zone.
And the deputies in Ukraine understand that too.
But their point is not an armament spiral, but their point is that they are being attacked by Russia, that people are being murdered, that the most serious war crimes are being committed.
And they ask us about the serious mistakes we made in Germany in dealing with Russia.
We enabled Russia to rearm in such a way
by making billions and billions in funding available through energy.
And we made each other and we also made mistakes.
I made mistakes there too.
Even as group leader, I wasn't loud enough when the contracts for Nord Stream 2 were signed in 2015.
We protested, but not loud enough.
And that was a year after that.
We made fun of the concerns of Eastern Europeans.
We said they had a Russian trauma and so on.
I can still remember the debates.
The bad thing is, they were spot on with their warnings.
They had a much more realistic look.
And so my plea is that after being wrong for the last 15 years, this time we listen carefully to what they say.
And they tell us
if Ukraine is unable to defend itself, Putin will attack the nearest country.
And we are already seeing the first steps in Moldova.
And that's why we have to make sure that Ukraine is able to defend itself.«
Michael Müller, SPD
»I also say that supporting Ukraine, being able to defend oneself against Russia is absolutely correct, but we have to keep an eye on the armaments and weapons spiral that has started.
And I'm worried about tanks being delivered now, then the next demand is planes to be delivered, then comes the no-fly zone.
And keeping that in mind is very important to me.
What the Chancellor emphasizes: to be careful that sooner or later this spiral does not make us a war party, and President Macron also says so. It is obviously not just one position in the Chancellery.”
Markus Feldenkirchen, DER SPIEGEL
»We once prepared this quote from the Federal Chancellor that Mr. Müller alluded to.
He told his colleagues from Spiegel: “I don't think it's justified for Germany and NATO to become warring parties in Ukraine.
I am doing everything to prevent an escalation leading to a third world war.
There must be no nuclear war.” Do you share the Chancellor’s fears, Herr Hofreiter?”
Anton Hofreiter, Alliance 90/The Greens
“I'm not assuming now, so to speak, that there are only suicide bombers in the Kremlin.
And that's why, of course, you have to weigh that up, that's why we agree that we will not directly become a party to the war.
But as Mrs. Strack-Zimmermann always says so cleverly: The war does not only take place with weapons and on the ground, but also with propaganda and with fear.
And the Kremlin is very, very good at reflecting on our debates and then amplifying them with propaganda.
Under no circumstances should one adopt the Kremlin's fear propaganda, namely, as I said, they are not suicide bombers either.
And as I said, we have to weigh this up, that's perfectly clear.
And I've used a word or two there before, so I wouldn't play it too hard, so to speak."
Markus Feldenkirchen, DER SPIEGEL
"Are you doing that, Mr. Müller and the Federal Chancellor, taking over the Kremlin's fear propaganda?"
Anton Hofreiter, Bündnis90/Die Grünen
»No.
So please don't put the word in my mouth.
I'm not saying that the chancellor is waging fear propaganda, we should always keep that in mind.
there are no suicide bombers in the Kremlin either."
Michael Mueller, SPD
'Well, but it's a serious concern.
At least for me I can say that.
It's a serious concern, because, Mr Hofreiter, we can't just try out what would happen if, but we have to seriously deal with the fact that we have to do everything we can to prevent this danger in every way, that it's escalating in that direction.
And I would say that you have to think about what happened in eight weeks and that we are having this debate.
Eight weeks ago we would have said that we didn't have to talk about a nuclear war at all, it's absurd.
And suddenly we're going through scenarios, when and how could something like this happen?
And how do we prevent that?
And I think that brings it so close
that it is a serious discussion and a serious option obvious to some.
And that's what drives me.
And that's why I say, and we both know that in any case, whether 20 German tanks are delivered or not, it's an important help for the Ukrainians to be able to defend themselves, but it may not completely change the course of the war.
And that's why you always have to ask yourself: What do you do, how far do you go, so that Ukraine is supported as much as possible, but other escalations are ruled out as far as possible?"
but it may not completely change the course of war.
And that's why you always have to ask yourself: What do you do, how far do you go, so that Ukraine is supported as much as possible, but other escalations are ruled out as far as possible?"
but it may not completely change the course of war.
And that’s why you always have to ask yourself: What do you do, how far do you go, so that Ukraine receives the greatest possible support, but other escalations are ruled out as far as possible?”
Markus Feldenkirchen, DER SPIEGEL
»Mr. Müller, you recently commented on the trip to Ukraine that our guest Anton Hofreiter, Ms. Strack-Zimmermann from the FDP and her party colleague Michael Roth made.
They accused the three of not having helped the trip.
They were, I quote: »The pictures and the on-site discussions came back full of emotions and then they made tough demands on the federal government too quickly.«
Michael Müller, SPD
»The only point is that not just anyone drove.
Three leaders of the coalition went, three committee chairmen, and of course we also assumed that it would be explained on site how the federal government is acting and why, and that the position of the chancellor would also be conveyed.
And the opposite has happened.
The three said the chancellor was the problem and that Germany had to do a lot more.
And that doesn't reflect the diversity of opinions we have on this topic, even in the coalition.«
Markus Feldenkirchen, DER SPIEGEL
"Do you accept Mr. Müller's criticism, Mr. Hofreiter?"
Anton Hofreiter, Bündnis90/Die Grünen
"I don't know exactly where the criticism is, namely there was a fierce struggle."
Markus Feldenkirchen, DER SPIEGEL
"They should have explained the government's position on site and shouldn't have done the opposite."
Anton Hofreiter, Bündnis90/Die Grünen
»We even explained the government's position on site.
We just also stated that we do not share this position to a large extent because we share the analysis of our Eastern European, Central Eastern European and local friends.
We were also in Poland before that and we see it that way and I personally also see it that we have to support Ukraine as much as possible for a number of reasons."
Markus Feldenkirchen, DER SPIEGEL
»Let's talk about another comrade who everyone is talking about these days, Herr Müller.
Gerhard Schröder, the ex-Chancellor.
He gave an interview for the New York Times last week, it said, accompanied by plenty of white wine, but whatever.
In it, he reiterated that ending his activities for Russian corporations was out of the question, despite the Russian invasion.
What is your advice to Gerhard Schröder from comrade to comrade these days?”
Michael Müller, SPD
»Yes, first of all I find it embarrassing.
And fortunately it's not the case that everyone talks about him, because he doesn't have that meaning anymore.
I think it's also exaggerated in the media.
It is always presented as if Gerhard Schröder is the Russian expert on social democracy and Putin's adviser.
I don't think any of that is true."
Markus Feldenkirchen, DER SPIEGEL
"Social Democrat is right."
Michael Müller, SPD
»Social Democrat is true, but within the party and also in public he plays practically no political role, he works in committees set up by Putin.
And I think he has to ask himself critically whether that's possible or whether it's compatible with his political appearance and his membership in the Social Democracy.«
Anton Hofreiter,
Bündnis90/Die Grünen
»He's just one of the worst lobbyists.
He's a lobbyist for a war criminal.
And that, well I think the SPD would just be very happy if he would finally resign and shut up.
But it's simply embarrassing for the entire Federal Republic that a former chancellor turns himself into this lobbyist."
Markus Feldenkirchen, DER SPIEGEL
"Mr. Müller, would you be very happy if Gerhard Schröder left the SPD?"
Michael Müller, SPD
»That would clarify the situation and clearly clarify it for both sides.«
Markus Feldenkirchen, DER SPIEGEL
»Your party leader Saskia Esken is even demanding that.
Is that what you want too?”
Michael Müller, SPD
“It would help the SPD.
Of course, we could also be freer and less burdened and would not have to constantly justify ourselves.
We could then present that our position.
And I think it would be the same for him.
He obviously wants to continue exercising these mandates and working for Putin.
Then he should do it unencumbered by social-democratic positions.«
Markus Feldenkirchen, DER SPIEGEL
»With the argument that he would still have an influence on Vladimir Putin.«
Michael Müller, SPD
»What?«
Markus Feldenkirchen, DER SPIEGEL
"Because he wouldn't just throw everything away."
Michael Müller, SPD
»Well, I have a different position there.
I think more that Putin uses him than that he is actually an important strategic advisor, but that's one point where I can't look into details and that's the way it is."
Markus Feldenkirchen, DER SPIEGEL
»Vitali Klitschko says about Gerhard Schröder: Go to Moscow.
Should he?'
Anton Hofreiter, Bündnis90/Die Grünen
“That's his decision, but as I said.
You really have to think about how to deal with such lobbyists in the future.
Namely Schröder has contributed to the fact that Germany is now in a situation of dependence on a war criminal and that is scandalous enough.
And as I said, all these stories have to be worked up.
We have done so many things wrong as the Federal Republic of Germany in the last 15 years.
And we were so arrogant towards those who warned us that we have to deal with this as a whole as a policy.«
