The philosopher Judith Butler (66 years old, Cleveland, USA), has spent the week in Barcelona, where she has received the XIII Catalonia International Award, endowed with 80,000 euros, for her contributions in the field of non-violence.
Thirty-two years ago, in 1990, she published Gender in Dispute, where she displayed a new perspective on gender: queer theory.
She climbing the path opened by Simone de Beauvoir — ”The woman is not born.
She gets to be”—Butler introduced the idea of fluid gender.
Since then she has dealt with many other issues and in fact she would like us not to look so intently in her direction when we talk about gender.
She is Jewish and, before she was born, she had lost much of her maternal family during the Holocaust.
She has criticized Israel's position towards the Palestinians, she was banned from entering the country,
The force of nonviolence.
Ethics in politics,
Ed. Paidós, 2021) and has rethought resistance (
Without fear. Forms of resistance to violence today,
Taurus, 2020).
He has an original way of presenting the ideal of equality in our societies: based on this distinction between the lives that are mourned and those that are not, the lives that socially deserve to be mourned and those that are not mourned (Precarious life: the power of mourning and violence, Paidós, 2007).
She is a professor at Berkeley University, yesterday she spoke at the Barcelona Center for Contemporary Culture, of which she is a regular.
She is petite, with slanted eyes and with style, she is the partner of the political scientist Wendy Brown, they have a son.
California has recognized the non-binary gender, neither female nor male.
QUESTION.
You make a defense of non-violence from the State.
In the case of Ukraine, should they defend themselves by attacking?
RESPONSE.
Of course, and I hope they are successful.
For me, non-violence is relevant as a philosophy, I think we should continue fighting for a world in which conflicts are resolved non-violently.
The responsibility in this case belongs to Putin, not to the Russian people who, if they resist, face the threat of imprisonment, exile or loss of employment.
Can we imagine nonviolent resistance to Putin?
I do.
Q.
Why has Putin decided to invade Ukraine?
A.
You may have had specific goals at the start, but once you're in and with people asking you to stop or hoping you'll lose… It will go on and on.
It will show that it can destroy more lives, grab more land.
I see no limit to your satisfaction.
He knows that the world condemns him and laughs at our condemnation.
It will do what you want.
He is a dangerous, perverse, murderous authoritarian type.
We need international solidarity strong enough for the Russians and the military to say enough is enough.
Q.
Would you say that gender plays a role in this offense?
A.
Gender is everywhere.
Of course.
Let us remember that a little over five years ago Putin signed a document [known as the homosexual propaganda law] and stated that the feminism of lesbians, gays and transsexuals in the West threatened Russian spiritual values, its security.
He defended
the country from these gays, trans and feminists who would question the traditional family, the patriotic structure of the State.
Q.
What kind of masculinity would you say Putin enacts?
R.
One that we cannot even label as toxic, it sounds sweetened.
One that does not give explanations to anyone and that measures its strength based on its destructive power.
He wants us to see that he has no limits.
We call these issues gender, and he represents the worst of gender norms.
There's so much more to gender than, oh, there's a people here that we'd like to have their identity recognized.
It is much more than an urban concern.
Gender is at war.
Right in the middle.
P.
You criticized the invasion of Iraq by the US —with the support of the United Kingdom and Spain— and you were silenced along with other thinkers.
The debate is back.
What do you think now?
R.
Does the fact that I opposed then mean that I will always be against an intervention?
No, but let's think about the difference between self-defense and military reinforcement as the only way to act in politics.
There are people who believe that politics is war by other means;
I disagree.
I would like a policy against war, that asks about how we should govern ourselves to save the Earth, how to deal with climate change, increase equality and freedom with international treaties, collaborating, understanding our interdependence.
Many say that the only way to deal with Putin is with nuclear weapons.
I answer: no.
Let us oppose the idea that nuclear weapons are necessary.
Q.
What do you think of the different treatment we give to refugees?
R.
European countries have more to offer by implementing a humane and inclusive policy.
There are so many refugees in the world – Ukrainian, Syrian, Afghan, North African… – that European countries with resources should be collaborating to build shelters and a new life for them.
It is an opportunity for Europe to reverse its racial policies towards immigrants.
Judith Butler this Tuesday at the Generalitat building, in Barcelona, where she received the International Prize for Catalonia. Consuelo Bautista
P.
If we begin to speak, as is happening in France, in identity terms, do we not separate ourselves from the universalist being that seeks the common good?
Is this idea threatened?
R.
It is a wrong debate.
The largest identitarian movement in the world is white supremacy, the ships in the Mediterranean pushing back immigrants from North Africa, these groups are branded as identitarian.
They defend the Greek, Italian national identity… We must be aware of who is investing in identity right now.
The French have a long history with the idea of universality, they believe it to be a neutral concept.
But how is the image of the universal man?
Is a man?
Is he white?
European?
There are always exclusions in the idea of universality.
Perhaps the way that allows us to reach the common is to work with our differences to find ways of translating ourselves from different worlds, finding ways of collaborating that preserve who we are.
P.
Is the identitarian left stealing the leading role that the convergence of classes previously had?
R.
Some believe it.
Is the feminist movement about identity or about equality?
If from the left we believe in democratic politics, we will want equality for all.
But if our ideas about equality do not take gender into account, we would be leaving gender equality out.
We would not be aware of what equality should be.
What about trans and
queer minors
from Poland, Romania or Hungary, who find it so difficult to walk down the street without fear of being persecuted?
Are they asserting their identity or are they seeking the freedom to live, breathe and move without fear of police violence?
From the left we want more freedoms.
If we do not think about the freedom of these young people, perhaps we have not thought enough about freedom.
We have to rethink freedom, equality and justice to have a broader and more powerful left.
The class goes through all of these categories, few things are more difficult than living in a rural area as a young
queer
person struggling to make a living and living as who you want to be.
P.
Now we see, especially among young people, much more flexibility with gender, but also a return to traditions that is leading to a rise of the extreme right.
What's going on?
R.
We must take very seriously the anti-gender movement that comes from the right, it is part of the new face of authoritarianism.
It is interesting to hear their criticism: some say that it is an evil force and an attack on Christianity, that it is something that comes from the intellectual urban centers, that tries to destroy the local culture.
Others, that those who experiment with their gender or want to change it are destroying society, offending what it means to be feminine or masculine, natural values or cultural values.
The right is afraid of gender.
But when I ask those who oppose this matter if they have read any studies on gender, they answer that they would never touch such a text;
I can't talk to them.
People are scared by the course of the economy, by their loss of purchasing power, because their work is more insecure,
They also fear climate change and immigration.
Gender has become the meeting point of all these fears.
Q.
In Spain, Vox aspires for gender-based violence to be called "intra-family" violence.
There are women who support him.
How do you avoid the loss of conquered spaces?
R.
Some social conquests have to be fought over and over again.
Vox repeats what Erdogan stated in 2021 when leaving the Istanbul Convention [the international legal framework promoted by the Council of Europe to legislate against gender-based violence], which promised to fight against violence generally inflicted by men against women and children within families.
In the traditional family, they come to say, there is no violence, there is no inequality, there is no lack of protection.
Families do not need protection from husbands.
There are women who do not want the State to intervene.
The way to deal with this denial is to be present in the media, in the solidarity networks that unite children and women of all spectrums, including LGTBIQ+, to document what is happening, to keep our solidarity strong and inclusive.
P.
Some minors, once they undertake the change of gender, repent and go back.
R.
I know the statistics of these cases in the United States. It is true that there is a very small percentage that when they decide to make the transition to another sex they come to regret it.
P.
Do you know the specific data?
R.
I don't know the age range, but it happens to less than 5%.
Let's remember that what many are looking for is legal recognition, rather than changes in their body.
Others seek access to hormones;
others, surgery.
There are different ways of becoming trans that can be easily reversible, others are more complex.
The doctors I've talked to tell me that the effects of the hormones can be reversed without doing much harm.
The important thing in this debate is not the decision of at what age an adolescent can decide to undertake the change, I understand that it is an important question that has to be resolved.
What is relevant is that we do not pathologize those who wish to explore, those who are asking themselves questions about what their gender is or how to live in their bodies.
It is difficult to inhabit a body.
Most people have problems of one kind or another.
Q.
Do you think this affects most people, as you say?
A.
Oh!
Teenagers when they look in the mirror and say, "I can't go out looking like this."
"Look at my hair."
"I have to put on makeup so I don't look so masculine."
My mother, at 92 years old, does not leave the house without painting her eye line.
There is a lot of anxiety.
But let me clarify that what I would like is for us to allow young people to find their own way in a supportive environment, without fear of being pathologized or criminalized like in Poland.
Or in places where being trans or gay is still illegal or considered a disease.
P.
In Spain, this March 8, in 20 cities there has been a split, on one side the supporters of free gender self-determination and on the other the opposite.
Do you see feminism divided in two?
R.
It saddens me and it is difficult to understand.
Feminism is above all about self-determination, equality and anti-discrimination.
It is against everything that limits our self-determination.
Trans people are allies of feminism, their requests overlap.
If feminism discriminates against trans people, it will promote inequality and discrimination.
For me that would not be feminism.
Feminism fights against racism, against the exploitation of workers, against transphobia.
Trans people are often also feminists, it is important to remember that.
I hope we get over this divide soon.
P.
Among the people opposed to the self-determination of trans people there is a lot of fear of losing years of achievements.
There is, for example, the fear that gender violence will lose its essence.
What do you answer them?
R.
In the past we thought we knew what the female gender was, but then we decided to review those ideas, we realized that they were very limiting.
They did not define who we were.
Women do not have to marry, they can reproduce outside the family, they can be lesbian, heterosexual... The meanings of the female gender have changed over the years and across cultures.
When talking about the female gender we talk about something dynamic, open, historical.
We are not just saying that women should be treated equally, we are saying how a woman can be defined.
We have been redefining, she is part of our liberation.
And now, suddenly, they tell us that we cannot redefine.
There are trans women who are much more a part of the female gender than I ever will be.
I have a lot to learn from them.
That sets me free
I don't have to belong to that category in the same way and it helps me see the complexity of that genre.
The source of violence is social domination.
That is what we fight against.
Not against men and their anatomy.
Simone de Beauvoir said: "You will never be determined by your anatomy."
P.
There are those who believe that your theories have become standard.
R.
The
queer movement is very broad, there are many
queer
theories
,
other thinkers: Paul B. Preciado, José E. Muñoz... I don't represent the norm, I represent the old paradigm.
Q.
What do you think of wombs for rent?
R.
I know that in France there are women against surrogacy, they do not believe that the woman's body should be rented, that this supposes an invasion by capitalism.
I understand.
But I think there are different ways to make a living and surrogacy is one of them.
Another is prostitution.
It may not be the best option, but maybe for some it is.
Why do we care so much what other people do?
Q.
Don't you think that it is a focus of inequality, that they are rich women hiring poor women?
R.
A source of exploitation?
It may be that you have not thought enough about this matter.
But it does not produce the same horror to me as to others.
Q.
California recognizes it as non-binary.
How many countries offer this possibility?
R.
Several States of the USA, Germany and I think that Scandinavia.
P.
Has something changed in you?
R.
Nothing has changed, I always felt that way.
Someone raised this category, it was included in the law and of course I wanted to be part of it.
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