These are days of high voltage at the ERC headquarters in Barcelona, where its president, Oriol Junqueras (Barcelona, 53 years old), receives EL PAÍS.
Added to the news about the espionage suffered by many of its leaders are the conflicting opinions within the independence movement about continuing support for the government.
The Republican leader seeks to please one and the other, but emphasizing a constructive message.
He does not give the government carte blanche, although he points out some ways to tackle the Pegasus crisis and thus not precipitate the end of the legislature.
He maintains that there will have to be resignations, although not necessarily that of Defense Minister Margarita Robles.
The Executive, in addition, will have to be transparent and give guarantees that the espionage will not be repeated.
If this happens,
Ask.
What do you expect from the meeting to which President Pedro Sánchez and
President
Pere Aragonès have called?
Response.
The most important thing is not whether there is a meeting or not.
It is its content: to guarantee transparency, the assumption of responsibilities and also in the establishment of the necessary guarantees that it will not be repeated.
P.
What should happen for ERC to close this episode and collaborate with the Government again?
R.
Our will is to be able to vote for what we are convinced is useful for citizens.
And it is clear that a positive decision for society as a whole is to clarify espionage like the one that has occurred.
More information
Three major reforms are at the expense of bridging the differences with ERC
P.
Do you consider it useful to give continuity to the current legislature?
R.
We are here to help all citizens.
We will agree with the Government if it rows in this same direction.
And a relevant part also involves guaranteeing citizens that they will not be spied on, that it will not happen again.
P.
One of the possibilities contemplated by the Government is the departure of the director of the CNI, Paz Esteban.
Is that enough for ERC within its request for assumption of responsibilities?
R.
It is not my will to establish a specific person in charge.
What does seem obvious to me is that someone must assume responsibility when at least sixty-odd people are spied on in a state, including the president, the defense minister and the former foreign affairs minister.
It is also the Government that, to a large extent, must make its decisions based on how much trust it wants to restore: not with us, but with society as a whole.
P.
With this we understand that you want to go beyond the Secrets Commission and ask for a specific one, of investigation, in Congress.
R.
Confidence is not restored through mechanisms that do not allow explanations to be given to public opinion.
They will have to be given in another broader context.
Junqueras poses at the Esquerra headquarters.gianluca Battista
Q.
Why don't you point to anyone specifically now?
Her party had requested the resignation of Minister Robles.
R.
For a very simple reason: we do not know exactly what the dimension of espionage is, how many people it has affected.
If now I try to personalize the responsibility, it is possible that in a few hours, in a few days, we will know that it goes far beyond a specific position.
We need transparency, assumption of responsibilities and guarantees that it will not happen again.
Q.
Do you prioritize transparency over names?
A.
We prioritized the three issues, but I think at this point it would be of little use if I proposed a specific name.
This is not a dispute between ERC and the Government.
It is a dispute between those of us who are convinced that democracy must be defended and those who are willing to sacrifice fundamental rights for their political interests.
And I am convinced that the majority of Spaniards believe that it is more important to defend democracy.
P.
You also ask for the declassification of the documents on the espionage.
What should your scope be?
R.
The more transparency, the better.
If whoever has ordered these wiretaps believes that he has acted appropriately and in defense of noble interests, he will have no objection to those orders being declassified.
It is strange that something as normal as asking for transparency is seen by some political spaces, especially from an increasingly extreme right and from the extreme right, as something negative.
P.
Junts and the CUP have spent days making you ugly for supporting a government that, according to them, is spying on them and asking you to stop parliamentary support.
What do you answer them?
R.
That we are not here to overthrow governments or to support the Government.
And if the Government makes decisions favorable to the citizens, then we will agree.
And among these decisions that we are convinced are useful for citizens is knowing that they are not spying on you.
P.
But within the Government and in Congress the feeling remained that the ERC's rejection of the labor reform and the decree law of economic measures for the war in Ukraine was a corrective to the Executive.
R.
When we decide on a vote in Congress, or anywhere else, we always prioritize the set of citizenship rights.
And it seems to me an absolutely unquestionable and inalienable right for any citizen to know that they are not being spied on.
Surely the labor reform had positive aspects, we have highlighted it, but at the same time it seemed to us that it could be improved in substantial aspects and, therefore, we have defended our conviction that it can be improved.
Q.
And how do you think your vote against the decree law on anti-crisis measures improves the lives of citizens?
R.
Surely it contributes to other political formations and other governments becoming aware of how important it is to defend the right of citizens, to know that they are not spied on.
P.
A week ago you questioned the espionage of Sánchez.
Has that perception changed?
R.
We do not have any reliable evidence.
And as long as there is no transparency, neither will we, nor will anyone else.
P.
Have you had your mobile analyzed to see if it has been investigated?
R.
No, among other things because when someone decided to spy I was in jail.
P.
Jordi Sànchez was spied on during his days off.
R.
Probably because their permits arrived before mine.
In any case, many of us have been spied on and for much longer than is now made public through the Citizen Lab report.
Q.
Do you hope that the dialogue table will be reactivated shortly?
R.
What we aspire to and in no case will we renounce is the defense of political negotiation as an instrument for resolving political conflicts.
It is the best instrument we have at this time to resolve the political conflict that exists between a large part of Catalan society and the State.
We will not give the flag of negotiation to anyone, nor to the Spanish Government, especially when it does not deserve it.
Because if anyone drags its feet in this realization of the negotiation, it has been the Government.
It is the Spanish Government that must take measures, such as, for example, guaranteeing that those who sit at a negotiating table are not spied on.
P.
ERC has been asking for "gestures" for the entire legislature so that the dialogue advances.
What should that gesture be, for example, towards Marta Rovira, Carles Puigdemont and other politicians who are outside of Spain so as not to answer to justice?
R.
It is not necessary for me to contribute anything new.
It is only necessary for the Spanish Government and the majorities that support it to be consistent with all the indications that come to them from the international arena.
From the United Nations, from the Council of Europe and its Parliamentary Assembly and from all European judicial bodies.
The Committee on Arbitrary Detentions of the United Nations has clearly declared itself in favor of the freedom of political prisoners, the return of exiles, and the end of repression.
He has highlighted that the Spanish Penal Code —for example, in terms of sedition or in terms of embezzlement by thought— does not correspond to any European Penal Code.
P.
You insist that you will never give up the path of dialogue.
Why is it so difficult to transfer this dialogue to Catalonia, for example, with the PSC, which is the main opposition party?
R.
_
The PSC has delegated a large part of its political functions to the PSOE.
And in fact, many Catalan socialists have felt the need to leave their lifelong party.
The PSC should reflect internally on the reason for this.
P.
But the negotiations are made between different…
A.
In Esquerra for sure.
And it is a pity that the PSC did not apply that principle when it had the opportunity to do so.
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