Klingbeil blames political talk shows for the NRW problem – Lanz can't believe it: "Zero percent!"
Created: 05/18/2022, 11:41 am
The guests on "Markus Lanz" (ZDF) on May 17: Lars Klingbeil, Christoph Reuter, Kerstin Münstermann and Harald Welzer (from left to right).
© Screenshot ZDF Mediathek
Who is to blame if many people do not vote?
And do arms deliveries in the Ukraine conflict make sense?
Things are getting hectic with “Markus Lanz”.
Hamburg – Markus Lanz would like more honest communication from SPD leader Lars Klingbeil.
The reason: Klingbeil called the result of his party in North Rhine-Westphalia "not good".
The answer of the co-chairman: He does not deny that it is the worst result of the Social Democrats in North Rhine-Westphalia.
But he also knows where the SPD in North Rhine-Westphalia comes from and that the state association was divided.
It was "bitter" for Klingbeil, however, to have lost more than 300,000 voters to the non-voter camp.
However, Klingbeil doesn't want to know much about the SPD attempt to reinterpret the loss of a majority for black and yellow in North Rhine-Westphalia as an SPD victory.
Host Lanz and
Rheinische Post
journalist Kerstin Münstermann insist that the SPD tried to derive a government mandate from the NRW result.
"Please show me the quote where someone said since Sunday, 7 p.m. that the SPD has a government mandate," counters Klingbeil.
A close result was expected by Sunday afternoon, but in the course of the evening they came to terms with the result: "At the latest when I was with Anne Will on Sunday evening as party chairman, I made a clear line and the line is: Mr. Wüst is now negotiating the Greens - and if that doesn't work, then we're ready."
Elections in North Rhine-Westphalia a flop, not only for the SPD - the "Markus Lanz" group discusses the many non-voters
Lanz calculates that of the 13 million eligible voters, six million would not have exercised their right to vote.
When it comes to the question of the causes, the round does not come to a common denominator.
Münstermann attests that the electorate is disenchanted with politics, while the sociologist Harald Welzer disagrees.
Citizens who do not go to the polls are not necessarily disinterested in politics; on the contrary, politics is becoming independent and arguing with themselves instead of with voters.
Klingbeil picks up on this argument: When he conducts a political interview, he usually knows the questions in advance - always based on current events.
On the other hand, the SPD leader explains that the election evaluation in North Rhine-Westphalia shows that many people did not vote because politicians did not address the most important issue for them - rising prices.
However, because the federal government has launched two relief packages with a volume of 30 billion euros, you have to question yourself critically: "As a political company, we also have to ask ourselves why it is not clear what we have done at this point."
Germany's Chancellor Scholz weakened?
The "Markus Lanz" group discusses the outcome of the NRW election
Talkmaster Lanz doesn't like the fact that Klingbeil also wants to make political talk shows responsible - which have discussed the Ukraine war intensively in recent weeks instead of picking up on relevant everyday topics.
He shares Klingbeil's analysis "to zero percent", after all it is understandable which topics people are interested in, says Lanz - and that includes the Ukraine war and the question of how the political parties stand on it.
His experience is that people get "a throat" when it gets under-complex and politicians try to sell them for stupid and do political marketing: "According to the motto: Look, black and yellow are voted out - that was it not a great evening for us?”
Klingbeil argued against the host: “You are now trying to justify the election result, after 50 percent did not go to vote, with the communication after the polling stations closed.
That doesn't work.” Lanz replies that he is very much alluding to the time before the election – and
Spiegel
journalist Christoph Reuter agrees with the moderator.
A politician like Robert Habeck (Greens) expects citizens to communicate authentically and tries to explain his actions without embellishment, says Reuter.
This federal political activity was also reflected in the ballot box in North Rhine-Westphalia.
Moderator Lanz picks this up and finds that Chancellor Olaf Scholz (SPD) is giving too hesitant a public image when it comes to support for Ukraine.
Welzer also says: "In a situation where there is a lot at stake and at the same time a lot is unclear, it would be expected of a Federal Chancellor that the position and the perspective would be clearly communicated in some way."
"Markus Lanz" - these were his guests on May 17:
Lars Klingbeil (SPD)
– party leader
Christoph Reuter
– war correspondent for
Spiegel
Kerstin Münstermann
– journalist at the
Rheinische Post
Harald Welzer
- Sociologist
A little later, it is Welzer himself who is put through the wringer.
He is one of the 28 first to sign the
letter to Chancellor Scholz published in
Emma .
Reuter, for example, does not understand why Welzer is arguing against an arms delivery practice that enables the Ukrainian army to "stop the roll of violence where possible".
"The answer is very simple: Because I don't believe that supplying weapons will stop the violence," Welzer replies.
Rather, it is to be feared that the "roller of violence" will become more intense the more weapons are involved in the conflict.
Welzer says he doesn't get much from the theory of sending so many weapons to Ukraine "until Putin can no longer do it anymore".
Reuter, who until recently reported from Ukraine, replies that the war in Ukraine might not be theorized in such a way.
After all, it is not a conflict between two equal parties, but an attacker and an actor who is forced to defend himself.
"Markus Lanz": Can heavy military equipment stop Russia's attack - or will it make the war worse?
Ukrainian places where the Russian army is allowed to operate freely would be "simply destroyed," Reuter said.
This can only be effectively prevented with the help of heavy artillery shells and tanks.
Welzer says that this argument makes sense to him “on a small scale”, but he doubts whether that means an end to the war in Ukraine.
Because Russian President Vladimir Putin uses violence unilaterally, Welzer asks: "Does it then make sense to say that we are following the dictator's logic and are continuing on the track?"
Or shall we say, now it is an absolute necessity that one tries by all means to open a window at the same time?”
Klingbeil listens to the discussion for a long time before speaking up.
"We have to get Putin to stop this war," says the SPD chairman.
Thanks to the far-reaching sanctions against Russia, which are causing Russians to leave the country and the resistance of Ukraine and the close ties of the West, Klingbeil assumes that this process is already taking place with the Russian president.
“These are all points where I do believe that it will do something with Putin.
But the guns are part of it for me.”
"Markus Lanz" - The conclusion of the show
In "Markus Lanz", SPD leader Klingbeil has to defend himself against tough questions from journalist Kerstin Münstermann and talk show host Markus Lanz after the election defeat in North Rhine-Westphalia.
In the second half of the show, sociologist Harald Welzer and war journalist Christoph Reuter debate the delivery of heavy weapons to Ukraine.
Klingbeil takes a clear stand, but also believes that arms deliveries alone are not the answer.
From his point of view, the debate between Welzer and Reuter shows that there is no script for such a situation.
As the responsible politician, however, he must consider that Putin has nuclear weapons: "What we are currently experiencing in the Federal Republic, the quadruple of sanctions, getting out of energy dependence, political pressure plus arms deliveries, is something that will eventually bring Putin to it to get involved in diplomatic talks,” says Klingbeil.
(Hermann Racke)