"Markus Lanz" debate on the Ukraine war: Can weapons bring peace or do they exacerbate the conflict?

Created: 06/03/2022, 17:43

Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann and Ulrike Guérot as guests on "Markus Lanz" © Markus Hertrich / ZDF

The Ukraine war heats up tempers in “Markus Lanz”.

A political scientist turns the group against herself: FDP woman Strack-Zimmermann is annoyed, talk show host Lanz almost beside himself.

Hamburg – In the case of “Markus Lanz”, the discussion about the Ukraine war gets heated at times on Thursday evening.

The FDP defense expert Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann warns in emphatic terms against the West giving up: “Ukraine will decide for itself what is going on.

And one thing is clear: If we give up this value-based order in which we live now, all I can say when that happens: God have mercy on us.

The Europeans too,” she says.

And continues: "It's about whether democracy and freedom win - or whether the Putins and dictators of this world have a chance."

During the evening at Lanz's, the journalist Natalie Amiri and the political scientist Ulrike Guérot campaign for a return to the meta level in the Ukraine war.

Too much is being said about arms deliveries and a military victory for Ukraine, while Guérot explains that Ukraine has no chance of winning the military conflict with Russia.

The Chair of the Defense Committee, Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann (FDP), understands the need for diplomatic dialogue, but recalls the war of aggression triggered by Putin, in which people in Ukraine lose their lives every day: "And we are discussing from Alpha -, beta or meta levels.

I can only say: You can only have a discussion if the other person is willing to discuss it at that level.

But he doesn't want that at all."

Ukraine war with "Markus Lanz" - FDP foreign expert Strack-Zimmermann clashes with political scientist Guérot: "That's really perfidious!"

"How do you know that?" replies Guérot aggressively.

"Because it was tried," the CNN journalist Frederik Pleitgen interjects, before the Russian attack, the US had "tried everything to prevent this war."

Guérot impatiently dismisses Pleitgen's remarks.

Guérot was annoyed that the interjection by talk show host Markus Lanz, French President Emmanuel Macron and Germany's Chancellor Olaf Scholz (SPD) tried to influence Putin with long telephone calls until the evening before the invasion of Russia.

It must be discussed at the level of strategic goals, she demands, not at the level of tactical details.

Strack-Zimmermann now also seems annoyed: "What levels are you talking about?

People get slaughtered there.”

"What I'm talking about is that in a war people are always slaughtered," replies Guérot, explaining that this is precisely why a ceasefire must be brought about.

With the fact that this cannot take place solely under the conditions of Ukraine, the political scientist alienates the hosts Lanz, Strack-Zimmermann and Pleitgen.

Guérot thinks Ukraine isn't just fighting back, the question is "what happened before".

“They accuse Ukraine of provoking Russia.

That is really perfidious!” Strack-Zimmermann gets upset.

Ukraine war with Markus Lanz (ZDF): chaotic discussion on arms deliveries to Ukraine

"Why is that an assumption?

Can we perhaps discuss that?” counters Guérot.

According to OSCE reports, shortly before the war began, Ukrainian attacks in the Donbass were intensified.

She does not share the analysis that "Putin alone is the evil".

He is to be held responsible for the war of aggression in Ukraine, "but if you don't want to contextualize what happened before 2021..." Strack-Zimmermann steps in and interrupts: "Now you're starting the robbery again justify."

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Talkmaster Lanz can hardly contain himself and angrily presents the case of Hanna Polonska, who described her fate in his show on Tuesday evening.

The host does not understand why civilians like her would have to pay for an alleged provocation by NATO: "What does this English teacher have to do with NATO?" Please!" But Guérot remains steadfast and asks whether Lanz knows the novel "Nothing New in the West" by Erich Maria Remarque, "there are 250 pages about the carnage in the trenches".

Lanz does not understand the connection: "I know.

But what does that have to do with anything?”

Markus Lanz gets upset about political scientist Guérot: "Why do you say that?!"

Guérot replies that "the slaughter in the trenches" is currently taking place and that she was the only one on the panel who said it had to end with a ceasefire.

Talkmaster Lanz no longer understands the world: "There is nobody here in this studio and there is nobody outside in front of the television who doesn't want that.

Why do you say that?!" Guérot defends himself, after all Strack-Zimmermann and Pleitgen had said that a ceasefire could be achieved "through more weapons" "and I believe that we can achieve that with a ceasefire and negotiations". .

"Markus Lanz" - these were his guests on June 2nd

• Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann (FDP)

  – politician

• Ulrike Guérot

  – political scientist

• Frederik Pleitgen

  – journalist

• Natalie Amiri

  – Journalistin

Guérot is convinced that the key to ending the war can be found in the United States, and that only dialogue between US President Joe Biden and Russian President Putin can bring about peace.

"Everything has already been tried!" Pleitgen interjects again.

Instead of going completely in circles, Guérot refers to the geostrategic interests of the world powers, which must be reconciled.

She follows the political strategist Henry Kissinger, who spoke at the World Economic Forum in Davos that Ukraine might have to cede areas to Russia in order to be able to settle the conflict.

At this point, Lanz had literally eaten Guérot: “Ms. Guérot, please.

Key witnesses are now 99-year-old men?”

Strack-Zimmermann (FDP) on the Ukraine war with "Markus Lanz": "That's called dictated peace"

After all, Kissinger is “an old fox,” counters Guérot.

She believes Ukraine will cede territory and have to submit to a neutrality pledge.

"And you want to decide that for Ukraine?" Pleitgen blunders in Guérot's direction.

She doesn't want that, replies Guérot, but talk show host Lanz is there: "Yes, yes.

They want Biden and Putin to make decisions about Ukraine.” Strack-Zimmermann is pushing in the same direction: “It's best to leave Ukraine out, don't sit at the table at all.

This is called dictated peace.”

"I believe that Ukraine will soon realize that the bloodshed and the trench warfare can no longer be endured," Guérot adds.

Strack-Zimmermann finds it "very exciting" to listen to Guérot, because she successively presents Putinian narratives.

Guérot abruptly changes the subject again and openly asks what the world should look like in 2030.

Strack-Zimmermann has an idea: "I can tell you that.

integrity of the borders.

Do you know that the UN was created to stop the killings of WWII?

The UN was founded so that the stronger would never again dictate to the weaker what is going on.”

"Markus Lanz" (ZDF) on the Ukraine war - the conclusion of the program

At "Markus Lanz" on Thursday evening, the political scientist Ulrike Guérot clawed a lot of speaking time, which, among other things, resulted in the sentence "I am the negotiated solution".

The politician Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann (FDP) and the journalist Frederik Pleitgen give their factual counter, on Twitter the criticism of the ZDF viewers is less diplomatic.

Talkmaster Markus Lanz is also working on the political scientist.

The moderator's initially short questions turned into long and emotional statements against the political scientist's arguments.

At the end of the sometimes polemical debate, there is the realization: "We will not get together again today." The journalist Natalie Amiri does not interfere in the heated discussion and towards the end of the program speaks briefly about her stay in Afghanistan, where after the fall of Kabul in August the Taliban rule and women hardly exist in public life anymore.