"Lanz" on ZDF: Should Ukraine join the EU?

– Skepticism about Scholz' trip to Kyiv

Created: 06/16/2022, 16:26

Markus Lanz and his guests on the show on June 15th, 2022 © Screenshot: ZDF-Mediathek / Markus Lanz

Markus Lanz on the Chancellor's trip to Kyiv: Can Ukraine join the EU?

Economist Kooths warns: "It would be the poorest member country that we then have." Corruption also remains an issue.

Hamburg- On the eve of the chancellor's trip to Kyiv, Markus Lanz makes Ukraine's possible accession to the EU the subject of his program.

He calls the debate, which is suddenly gaining momentum for political reasons, “a delicate question”.

In no country before has the willingness to lower the hurdles for accession so low so quickly seemed so great.

Ursula von der Leyen has just been to Ukraine for the second time, now the chancellor is going there - "How do you find this point in time?" Markus Lanz asks the SPD politician Michael Müller.

He can show his inexhaustible sympathy for Olaf Scholz to the fullest.

"Of course that's a strong signal," says Müller happily, but he immediately runs into a wall.

Journalist Claudia Kade sees it all as "an unworthy spectacle".

Scholz probably wanted to demonstrate "that one was not totally inactive now." Calling the trip overdue is still a friendly term.

"I believe that Scholz should also use the time, not just Ukraine."

"So is there a certain amount of hypocrisy involved again?" asks Lanz.

Political scientist Gwendolyn Sasse is also critical of the chancellor's trip.

She recalled that Italian Prime Minister Mario Draghi had already presented a peace plan in Ukraine.

In any case, it would be “better if someone from Poland would also take me tomorrow”.

Ukraine soon in the EU?

– Economist Kooths: “It would be the poorest member country we have then.”

Economist Stefan Kooths from the Kiel Institute for the World Economy looks at the sensitive issue from the economic side.

“What does it actually mean for a very poor country to join the EU?” he asks.

“It would be the poorest member country we have then.

It wasn't the basic idea of ​​the EU that we set up a supranational institution that would only ever redistribute income."

He sees the foundations of the European community being called into question.

“We want to be the most progressive, knowledge-based economy in the world and we still spend around a third of our community budget on our agricultural pots.

That's out of time.

That would also be an impetus to fundamentally rethink the idea of ​​the EU.”

Lanz intervenes, playing the naïve in his tried and tested way: "Is there an agricultural lobby that screams hip hip hooray when a country as big as Ukraine, one of the largest grain producers in the world, when they suddenly get their hands on these pots? Kooths sees it critically: "Well, there will be very strong resistance.

There will probably be some barter deals.

But that's just not the idea of ​​the EU.” Countries like Ukraine would be helped best “by offering them open markets where they can then prove themselves”.

These guests discussed with Markus Lanz

• Michael Müller

  (SPD member of the Bundestag, member of the Foreign Affairs Committee)

• Gwendolyn Sasse

  (Director of the Center for Eastern Europe and International Studies ZOiS)

• Stefan Kooths

  (economic researcher, Vice President of the Kiel Institute for the World Economy)

• Claudia Kade

  (Head of Politics, daily newspaper “Welt”)

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Scholz's visit to Ukraine: Another air raid alarm in Kyiv

The Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyj has his say in a clip.

He warns the Germans against a "balancing act".

You shouldn't try to maintain good relations with both countries, Ukraine and Russia.

The German people, Zelenskyj states, have long since made up their minds, but the leadership has not.

Markus Lanz, who often swaps his moderator role for that of a fellow discussant, is fully on Selenskyj's side.

As far as Russia is concerned, one would have to “say goodbye to a lifelong lie”.

Lanz criticizes the Federal President: Frank-Walter Steinmeier once spoke of "neighbor Russia".

Lanz quotes it in astonishment.

He himself looked at the maps and found: "Russia is not our neighbor at all, if you look at it purely geographically."

Lanz takes Michael Müller in the pliers.

He seems hit, struggling for words.

He takes the SPD man Müller in the pliers again.

But not without first opening the flank with a few charming words.

"For me, you are the epitome of the upright social democrat," whispers Lanz.

Mueller smiles.

And the moderator is already setting the Russia natural gas lance: "The involvement of former Chancellor Gerhard Schröder in this natural gas business - did you never have a queasy feeling?"

Müller looks hit and struggles for words: "Yes, of course.

Naturally.

What kind of answer do you expect now?

Of course, of course.

This is a conflict between the SPD and the former chancellor.

It's not going to be good either, the relationship.

Something's broken."

Lanz follows: "But that's the history of your party!" Müller: "Of course there were mistakes.

After the end of the Cold War, when there was hope that something could be agreed with Russia in a peaceful Europe.

And we now see that it doesn't work."

Müller is slowly recovering.

Lanz quotes the former chancellor, who once described Putin as a flawless democrat.

“Did you believe him?” he wants to know from Müller.

The former Governing Mayor of Berlin is now getting back to his old ways.

"No," he says resolutely.

"But we shouldn't exaggerate Gerhard Schröder either." Now he taunts back: When Angela Merkel says she has nothing to blame, then that is "also remarkable".

"You think that's wrong?" asks Lanz.

“Yes, of course: we have something to blame ourselves for.

But you can see “that there is a very complicated voting process”.

Müller is back on track.

Economist Kooths warns: Germany should never have to choose between Ukraine and Russia

Economist Kooths has his say.

His specific speeches prove to be a beneficial highlight of the show.

Kooths criticizes the statements made by the Ukrainian president.

Germany should never have to choose between Ukraine and Russia, said Kooths.

Because “that would rule out the possibility of things ever improving in Russia.

If we send the signal now that we will never trade with you again, it would paralyze all forces in Russia that are specifically geared to doing so.”

The economist takes a critical view of the discussion about Ukraine's accession to the EU.

"We have criteria, and they are politically overridden." He feels reminded of monetary union.

“We also had criteria there.

And then it was said that we are now making a political decision, the criteria no longer apply.” The result was a situation “that has been giving us headaches for over ten years now”.

A remarkable moment follows: Lanz says: "I'm looking forward to the answers from both Ms. Kade and Ms. Sasse." As if he wanted to prove that he had learned from his mistakes in previous panel discussions.

For example, he hardly let Professor Ulrike Guérot finish a sentence for a whole program and was severely criticized for it.

“Markus Lanz”: Corruption remains an issue in Ukraine

East expert Sasse sees the debate about Ukraine's EU accession as the first important political step, but the subsequent process will take a very long time.

“We have always talked a lot about corruption in Ukraine.

There were, and there will likely be more.

It will then have to be clarified how Volodymyr Zelenskyj was able to generate private wealth of 850 million euros, first as a comedian and later as President.

Moderator Lanz, now back in the discussion, advocates throwing the criteria overboard.

He calls for "a clear commitment, a clear symbol" that Ukraine is welcome in the EU.

And criticizes that Germany has not yet delivered a single heavy weapon.

He is also critical of the delivery in the exchange of rings with other countries.

"Is the ring exchange actually over?" he asks reproachfully.

Müller, a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee, has to admit: "I can't judge that well, I simply don't know." He still tries for a good minute to explain the status of the deliveries to Lanz, but ends with the words "I can do that don't judge.” So the round doesn't get any further here.

Spicy clip: Even Selenskyj himself does not know whether and which weapons were delivered

Spicy detail: Even the Ukrainian President has no answer.

A clip makes it clear: Selenskyj does not know himself if and when something was delivered.

"That's strange," comments Sasse.

"Actually, you should know what has arrived."

Kade criticizes that Germany's behavior is "half-hearted," and Müller makes the big political statement: He recalls that Germany "decided within a few days" to release 100 billion additional taxpayers' money for the military, which our social system ultimately lacks.

All of this is not happening fast enough for Lanz.

He keeps asking about the multiple rocket launchers.

"When?

When will it be?

When will they be delivered?”.

The Eastern expert can answer the question of how long this war will last.

Sasse: The Russians “hold out for much longer than we would like.

There is no end in sight."

“One has the feeling that the Russians don't have the problem with inflation.

the ruble has evidently stabilized quite a bit again.

but we have the problem,” says Lanz, and economist Kooths explains why.

"Every inflation has its history." For years, the European Central Bank (ECB) has created a kind of "phantom income" for private households.

Money was printed, which had accumulated not least because of the lockdowns.

"It couldn't be spent.

Purchasing power has thus been built up in private households.

In Germany alone we are talking about 200 billion euros.

This is now putting pressure on the goods markets and driving up prices.”

Michael Müller: "Increasing energy prices will play a role for many years to come."

"Then the inflation didn't end with the war?" asks Lanz.

Kooths briefly: "Yes." The central bank has created inflation potential.

"It's getting uncomfortable now." Lanz sums up: "People are coldly expropriated."

SPD man Müller mentions the relief packages, but immediately picks up two hard dampers.

Claudia Kade reminds us that the fuel discount and the nine-euro ticket only had one very simple purpose: to give every coalition partner a political treat.

Economist Kooths also countered Müller.

"It's a disservice to those living on the lower income bracket.

This makes their standard of living even more difficult.” With this, Kooths defines the dilemma in a short formula: redistribution and state intervention in economic processes do not solve any problems, they only create new ones.

"Anything we do unnecessarily just makes it harder for people."

“Increasing energy prices will play a role for many years.

That has to do with our climate goals,” says Müller.

Which leads Lanz to a depressing conclusion: "We have to say goodbye to some illusions." Müller: "Right."

Conclusion of the talk with Markus Lanz:

Lanz has again taken on the role of moderator for a long time.

Apparently he learned from the criticism when he constantly interrupted his talk guest Ulrike Guérot.

He let his guests have their say, even demonstratively interrupted by them.

That was a ray of hope in a program that was shocking enough in content with topics such as war and inflation.