Anne Will: Ukraine Minister Desperate: 'The Later You Deliver Weapons, The More People Die'

Created: 06/20/2022, 12:09 p.m

The guests at Anne Will (ARD) on June 19th, 2022.

© NDR/Wolfgang Borrs

Commission chief von der Leyen announces a lengthy EU accession process for Ukraine.

Foreign Minister Kuleba speaks of a desperate fight - if necessary with "shovels".

Berlin – The camera pan on the facial expression of the former Berlin Mayor Michael Müller from the SPD says more than all the words spoken in the "Anne Will" talk in the first.

Müller reacted non-verbally to the statements made by the Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba, who joined the political talk from Ukraine.

He even seems to be fighting back tears when the Ukrainian foreign minister clarifies the desperate will of his compatriots to resist the Ukraine war: "If we don't get weapons, all right - then we will fight with shovels".

In her political talk, Anne Will got to the bottom of whether Germany and Europe are supporting Ukraine enough in the fight against Russia. The topic of the show was: "Solidarity with Ukraine - what are Germany and Europe ready for?"

While the political guests cautiously avoid the answer, the head of the Security Policy research group at the Science and Politics Foundation, Dr.

Claudia Major, to the point: "At the moment we don't support enough".

If no or not enough weapons come from the West, according to the scientific security expert, Ukraine will “not last much longer”.

"Anne Will" - these guests discussed with:

• Ursula von der Leyen (CDU)

  - President of the European Commission 

• Dmytro Kuleba -

  Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine

• Michael Müller (SPD)

  - MP 

• Johann David Wadephul (CDU) -

  Deputy Chairman of the CDU/CSU parliamentary group for defense 

• Dr.

  _

  Claudia Major -

  Political Scientist, Head of the Security Policy Research Group of the Stiftung Wissenschaft und Politik (SWP)

• Christoph Schwennicke

  - Managing Director of the collecting society Corint Media

In contrast to the appearances of the Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyj, Kuleba appears very improvised in a simple shirt and in front of a white wall without the state insignia of his country.

It seems even more desperate when Kuleba speaks to the camera: "The later you send us the weapons, the more people will die before then, the more people will fall victim to Russian atrocities and the more Ukrainian territory will be conquered by the Russians. "

The security expert confirms that the military situation in Ukraine is deteriorating.

The phase has already been reached "where the one who lasts longer wins the war." Major leaves no doubt about the enormous Russian superiority.

Foreign Minister Kuleba puts it in figures: "There are currently ten Russians for every Ukrainian."

Major lists the many areas that are necessary for successful warfare: "Military, logistics, finance, economy, morale".

"Anne Will" (ARD) on the Ukraine war: SPD-Müller defends government course

Müller, who had stepped in at short notice for the SPD party leader Saskia Esken, who was actually invited but had Covid, does not accept the criticism of the government course and too few weapons.

For years, Germany has been “a very important supporter of Ukraine” alongside the USA, said Müller.

This "coordinated help" is an "essential point".

The SPD politician gets support from the former editor of the political magazine

Christoph

Schwennicke, who denounces the current "polyphonic chorus of chancellor critics" which he regards as "unjustified".

According to Schwennicke, the government's foreign policy course is not "hesitating" but "calculating".

The deputy chairman of the CDU/CSU parliamentary group for defense, Johann David Wadephul, is more determined than Müller, who is sometimes emotional.

Wadephul speaks of a "Russian war machine" that is "milling" through the country, of "genocide" that is taking place "in the middle of Europe" - and in the end even makes use of the legendary and controversial statement by former SPD Defense Minister Peter Stuck .

According to Wadephul, he “once said that our freedom in the Hindu Kush will be defended!

Today this is happening in Ukraine,” said the opposition politician.

"The faster and more effectively we end this war," says Wadephul, "the better for Germany too."

But Major also warns urgently: Should Ukraine lose and "no longer exist as a state", it would be "extremely worse off in terms of our security." Major advises against assuming that the aid for Ukraine should be seen as "alms" from politics: It is in our interest "that Ukraine wins this war," said the security expert.

And that it “reforms and modernizes after the war and becomes a stable, prosperous state.

For us, it is the best goal we can have.” Germany must now ask itself: “Have we supported Ukraine enough to achieve this goal?” She brings up the possibility of weapons from the stocks of the to deliver the Bundeswehr to the partially occupied country.

"That's possible?" Will asks.

Major nods, legally it is possible:

also read

US intelligence sees a turning point in the Ukraine war: the West is still faced with the weapons dilemma

"Historical mission": Expert considers Putin's justifications in the Ukraine war "absurd" - and names real intention

"Anne Will" (ARD) on Ukraine accession: Von der Leyen brakes

EU Commission President Ursula von der Leyen comments on Ukraine's possible accession to the EU.

Von der Leyen never tires of emphasizing that it is “only” up to the designated accession candidate Ukraine whether it manages to meet the EU criteria.

A lot of work lies ahead for the country, says von der Leyen, who describes accession as a "strategic interest" for the EU as well as a "moral obligation" to Ukraine.

But the head of the commission is optimistic: "Ukraine has made enormous strides forward in recent years."

She praises both their parliamentary democracy, the "vibrant civil society" and the progress made in "administrative areas".

However, there are still problems

in questions of the rule of law, corruption and the fight against oligarchs, there one wants to see "more reforms" - the procedure is "not a sure-fire success" and a period of ten years is realistic.

EU Commission President Ursula von der Leyen (l) speaks at a joint press conference with Volodymyr Zelenskyy, President of Ukraine.

© Michael Fischer

Conclusion of the "Anne Will" talk

The question of whether arms deliveries are not being made due to political considerations or simply because the funds are lacking is not explained in the program.

But what does it mean for Germany and the EU if the Russian strategy should be successful after all?

Would Ukraine's accession to the EU, which is a long way off, still matter at all?

Not a word about that on the show.