Interview with Scholz: plain text on nuclear extension and criticism of Ukraine - "would lead to a catastrophe"

Created: 06/20/2022, 08:11

By: Christian Deutschländer, Georg Anastasiadis

Chancellor Olaf Scholz in the "Münchner Merkur" interview © Steffen Kugler/Bundesregierung

Chancellor Olaf Scholz (SPD) emphasized that the nuclear phase-out had long been decided.

If an extension of the term were possible "without any problems", however, "hardly anyone would currently oppose it".

Berlin – He comes almost directly from Kyiv, has two short nights in the rattling train in his bones, only a quick shower.

And yet Olaf Scholz seems highly concentrated.

The Chancellor looks at the questioner closely, answers thoughtfully, ready for printing, sometimes after a few seconds' pause, and sips tea in between.

We meet him on Friday afternoon for a detailed interview in his office on the seventh floor of the Chancellery.

An hour is scheduled.

No rush, no hassle.

In the end, just a subtle note from the government spokesman: You have to gradually come to the end - US President Joe Biden is waiting in a video booth.

Politicians who have been to Ukraine often say afterwards that the visit changed their perspective.

You just come from Kyiv.

How do you feel after your trip to the theater of war?

Seeing the massive destruction in Irpin, just a few kilometers from the gates of Kiev, is heartbreaking.

The Russian troops used the utmost military force there, destroying blocks of flats and reducing streets to rubble.

I've seen cars in which families were shot just trying to get to safety.

And such brutality is happening all over Ukraine, especially in the east of the country.

That's depressing.

Immediately after your arrival there was an air raid alert.

Were you afraid at that moment?

no

But it showed me how everyday life feels for the people of Kyiv.

At any moment, a rocket could hit a residential area anywhere in the city.

Her mantra: Ukraine must not lose.

Should Ukraine win, as your Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock says?

Ukraine must be able to defend its integrity and sovereignty.

That's what it's all about now.

Russia must end the war immediately and withdraw its troops.

It is clear that a dictated peace by Putin's grace is unacceptable.

Germany, like many other countries, supports Ukraine to the best of its ability.

Financially, by giving a lot of money.

Humanely, by treating the injured and by taking in more than 800,000 refugees in Germany.

And military, with the supply of weapons and ammunition.

And in Europe we jointly issued six very harsh sanctions packages against Russia.

We'll hold out for as long as it takes.

Despite this, the debate focuses on tanks.

The industry says there are 30 Marder infantry fighting vehicles ready.

Do you allow export now?

In my conversation in Kyiv, the president clearly described what he needs now: it's about heavy artillery, anti-aircraft systems and protection against missile strikes.

And that is exactly what Germany delivers.

Ukrainian soldiers are currently being trained on the most modern and effective system - the Panzerhaubitze 2000. We are supplying a dozen of these devices together with the Netherlands.

And training on the anti-aircraft tank Gepard is underway, and then they can be used in Ukraine.

In addition, together with the USA and Great Britain, we are supplying modern multiple rocket launchers, which are urgently needed.

And the modern anti-aircraft system Iris-T.

As you can see, we deliver what is needed and helps.

And we are moving in the same direction as our most important and closest allies.

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From left: Georg Anastasiadis and Christian Deutschländer in conversation with Olaf Scholz in the Federal Chancellery © Steffen Kugler/Bundesregierung

Nevertheless, there are allegations.

The Ukrainians bitterly call it "Scholzen" when someone promises something and doesn't deliver.

Does that apply to you?

Much of what is being said in this country is simply not true.

And some underestimate the complexity of the matter.

If we supply the most modern weapon systems such as self-propelled howitzers or complex anti-aircraft systems, the soldiers must also be well trained, otherwise these weapons will be ineffective.

And for some systems, the appropriate ammunition must be organized.

Anyone who thinks that weapons of war are available like cars from dealers is wrong.

I am aware that I have to endure criticism.

But I will not let myself be diverted from a level-headed course.

Can you promise us Germans: under my leadership there will be no war in Germany - I'll keep us out of it?

From the beginning I said very clearly: we will support Ukraine.

To do this, I broke with a rule that had been in place for decades and, for the first time, had weapons delivered to such a war zone on a large scale.

At the same time, and this was also clear from the start, we and our allies are doing everything we can to avoid an escalation into a war between Russia and NATO - because that would lead to a catastrophe.

That is why, in March, we all rejected Ukraine's desire to impose a no-fly zone.

That would have meant NATO's direct participation in the war.

They offer Ukraine an EU perspective.

Putin, however, regards the EU and NATO as hostile alliances, at least so far.

Will he ever accept Ukrainian EU rapprochement?

The EU is not a military alliance...

...but support each other.

For defense we have come together in NATO.

NATO is not a threat to Russia, and certainly not the European Union.

The Russian President has to accept that a community of democracies and constitutional states is growing ever closer together in his neighborhood.

Putin seems afraid that the spark of democracy could spread to his country.

That's why for years he's been pursuing a policy aimed at dissolving NATO and the EU.

He wants a divided Europe and a return to a policy of zones of influence.

He won't be able to do that.

Putin is already turning off the gas tap.

Do you believe Moscow's justification that spare parts are missing due to sanctions?

This justification is not plausible.

That's why nuclear power won't help us now, not in the next two years, which is important.

Chancellor Olaf Scholz (SPD)

You have proclaimed a turning point in the Bundestag.

Doesn't that also include letting the remaining nuclear power plants run longer so as not to have to generate electricity from scarce and precious gas?

The experts tell us: This will not work.

The nuclear phase-out was decided a long time ago, the fuel elements and the necessary maintenance intervals of the plants have been precisely coordinated with the phase-out.

The fuel rods last until the end of the year.

According to these statements, procuring new fuel rods takes twelve to 18 months.

At least.

That's why nuclear power won't help us now, not in the next two years, which is important.

So you don't have an ideological problem with nuclear power plants, but a practical one?

I wholeheartedly support the phasing out of nuclear energy.

Nevertheless: If it were possible to extend the term by one or two years without any problems, hardly anyone would object to it now.

But since that's obviously not possible, I won't dwell on the question for long.

The CSU says: at least until 2024. We don't hear a categorical no today?

The arguments of the experts who speak against an extension have not yet been refuted anywhere.

This energy dependency has reasons - a wrong assessment of Russia.

Your party colleague Sigmar Gabriel has apologized for the "biggest failure of German foreign policy".

Is he right?

And shouldn't former chancellor Merkel also admit mistakes?

The former chancellor has just spoken out about this.

In the past, I have always made it clear that Russia must accept a European Union that is moving ever closer together and should not feel threatened by NATO either.

Turning to energy, the mistake wasn't so much in sourcing gas, oil and coal from Russia.

It's about not making provisions just in case.

As Hamburg's mayor, I campaigned massively for the construction of liquid gas terminals on the north German coast.

Unfortunately without sufficient support.

Now we are building these terminals with utmost commitment to establish alternative delivery routes.

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You have announced a concerted action to relieve the citizens.

Shouldn't this also include abolishing VAT on groceries altogether?

The federal government has put together two large relief packages - 30 billion euros.

In the next few weeks, every employee will receive an energy supplement of 300 euros, plus another 100 euros for each child.

We introduced the fuel discount and the nine-euro ticket for a limited period and increased the heating surcharge.

Small, medium and normal incomes benefit from this.

Was that it?

The high prices will be with us for a long time.

That's why I brought the Concerted Action back to life.

We want to coordinate with the unions and employers.

The first meeting will be on July 4th to discuss together what needs to be done.

The aim is for us to join hands and develop a joint plan on how we can relieve the burden on employees.

I consciously tie in with the concerted action that helped our country through the economic crisis at the end of the 1960s.

Is your plan: A one-off payment from the collective bargaining partners, for which the state takes the VAT on basic food out?

I ask for your understanding: we will develop what needs to be done in discussions with the social partners, not in a casual newspaper interview.

I will not engage in collective bargaining at our meeting - that is up to the collective bargaining partners.

But I would like to say this: I like the recent agreements in the chemical and steel industries with such a one-off payment.

I was elected by many citizens because they trust me to do something: that I keep my nerve.

Chancellor Olaf Scholz (SPD)

Let's look at the summit in Elmau.

Will this be the most difficult, most important meeting of the great nations in decades?

In Elmau we meet at a very difficult time - a brutal war is raging in Europe.

The G7 will discuss the war in Ukraine and how we can further support the country in its fight against Russia.

With a view to climate protection, I hope for progress.

I propose a climate club for all those countries that want to become climate-neutral by the middle of the century and develop joint processes to do so.

It's about the fight against hunger in the world, which threatens to get even tougher in view of the Ukraine war.

The G7 are the union of the economically strongest democracies in the world.

The democracies of the future lie in Asia and Africa.

That's why I deliberately invited five partner countries to Elmau....

Indonesia, India, Senegal, South Africa, Argentina.

It is important for me to show that this is not about the West and the countries in the northern hemisphere, but about what democracies have in common, our values.

This will be one of the most important moments of this G7 meeting.

Why actually Elmau, another summit in Upper Bavaria's mountains?

The high valley is beautiful and everyone has fond memories of the summit of 2015.

Have you ever been there yourself?

I was in Elmau privately with my wife.

Twelve years ago - we visited the Passion in Oberammergau from there.

Finally personally: You are chancellor in a time of war, the whole world is watching you and expecting our country to be on the right side of history this time.

Can you still sleep peacefully as a head of government?

(long pause) I was elected by many citizens because they trust me to keep my cool – even when the situation is difficult.

And you can trust that.