Linken-Bartsch sees West profiteers in the Ukraine war: "There is endless money"

Created: 06/24/2022, 12:35 p.m

Co-Chairman of the Left Group Dietmar Bartsch in conversation with Markus Lanz (ZDF).

© Cornelia Lehmann/ZDF

ZDF: Markus Lanz debates the situation in Ukraine.

Restraint or more weapons?

Left-wing politician Bartsch calls for more sanctions.

Hamburg – Publicist Wolfram Weimer, although not present at all, opened the evening.

Markus Lanz quotes him from the previous program with the thesis that Ukraine has already lost this war.

Markus Lanz wants to know whether Dietmar Bartsch agrees.

Dietmar Bartsch on "Lanz": "Are completely inconsistent when it comes to sanctions"

The Left Group leader shakes his head: "I don't see it that way." He brings the NATO Secretary General into play: "When I hear Mr. Stoltenberg say the war can last for years, that's a really big threat for me .

Because that means: tens of thousands of dead, expulsion, flight.

You have to prevent that if at all possible.”

"I think that we are completely inconsistent when it comes to sanctions," says Bartsch.

“When I look at the fact that Greek shipowners are now cruising around transporting Russian oil, that India is buying the oil from Russia, processing it and then selling it to Europe: that's an indictment of the European Union.

We are talking about EU unity, and that is not true at all.

I expect consistency there.”

En passant he criticizes Defense Minister Christine Lambrecht, but he hopes for French President Macron and Chancellor Scholz.

If they called Putin - "it will bring something in the end".

Bartsch: "All of a sudden, fracking gas is an exciting raw material that everyone in the world is fighting over"

The journalist Jessica Berlin tackles Bartsch harshly from the side.

"What are the magical words you have to say to Vladimir Putin on the phone so that he stops killing Ukrainians?" Bartsch prefers to expropriate instead.

Belgium has already taken 13 billion from the Russian oligarchs, "Germany not even one".

That is unacceptable.

Speaking of money: Lanz wants to know who "has an interest in this war being continued".

The sentence ignites, Bartsch shoots off immediately.

“All of a sudden, fracking gas is an exciting raw material that everyone in the world is fighting over.

And who is finally selling their fracking gas at the prices they wanted?

The United States."

These guests discussed with Markus Lanz:

• Olivia Kortas

  (journalist, Die Zeit)

• Jessica Berlin

  (expert on foreign and geopolitics, commentator for Deutsche Welle)

• dr

  Dietmar Bartsch

  (Co-Chairman, Die Linke)

• Sönke Neitzel

  (Professor of Military History, Military Historian)

also read

German arms fiasco about deliveries to Ukraine: Scholz apparently surprised everyone – with dire consequences

US intelligence sees a turning point in the Ukraine war: the West is still faced with the weapons dilemma

Weapons in the Ukraine: "There's no end to the money"

Bartsch also sees parallels when it comes to weapons: "All of a sudden, armaments companies have DAX developments that are fantastic." He names Rheinmetall, Heckler and Koch as well as American companies - "there's endless money to be made.

Nobody can deny that there is an objective interest there.”

“Does that mean America has an interest in this war going on?” asks Lanz.

And Bartsch makes it clear: “Where does Germany buy its weapons?

In the USA.

It used to be called the military-industrial complex.”

Markus Lanz/Ukraine: "Putin sees this as an invitation"

He also finds the West's reaction to the war inconsistent when it comes to fertilizers.

“Europe is embargoing, the United States is buying more now than before.

What is that?

Do we really want this war to end?

Then there must be consistency!” Especially since America can build up much greater pressure than others.

Jessica Berlin is tough in her views: "Vladimir Putin only reacts to strength.

He sees every sign of weakness as an invitation to keep going.

Then we must also be ready to fight back with military means.”

“What is the military goal supposed to be?” asks Bartsch.

"The aim is to drive the Russian army out of Ukraine," Berlin replies.

"For the Russian army to be so threatened and endangered that they have to retreat."

Bartsch thinks of the possible consequences: One must “face the danger that a nuclear power that is cornered also risks a nuclear war”.

And "there is no winner in a nuclear war, as we all know."

Berlin countered: "As Putin also knows." But Bartsch sticks to his position, he calls for moderation: "I'm not willing to take risks to say: Yes, let's do it, we'll take the risk."

Markus Lanz/Ukraine war: “We made a lot of promises and then didn't deliver.

Berlin passes the buck to the German federal government: "We made a lot of promises and then didn't deliver." It is the moment when Bartsch, actually in the opposition, jumps to the Chancellor's side: "I don't really have to defend Olaf Scholz," he says.

"But Germany has done an infinite amount in the direction of Ukraine."

Lanz targets the oligarchs.

“How did Poroshenko earn his money?” he asks.

There is also the question of Selenksyi's large fortune.

850 million – where they come from is not clear.

With Poroshenko it is “confectionery”.

Kortas sees Selenskyi as "the new face", as a sign of departure.

"But isn't it also true that 20 parties have been banned in Ukraine?" Bartsch interjects.

Kortas hesitates, mentioning a court order that legitimized this state-imposed monopoly of opinion.

There were parties that were "very Putin-friendly," Kortas explains.

These would have had to “give up their funds”.

In other words: expropriation.

The “Zeit” journalist sees no problem in that.

She describes it as "a security measure".

"The deputies are still in parliament, they also vote and keep quiet a bit, so they debate less or not at all, and admit defeat."

Markus Lanz: Runde argues about democracy in Ukraine

Lanz tries to discuss Ukraine's capacity for democracy.

"Selenskyi has to defend himself against the accusation that he has taken on a lot of power," says the moderator, and Kortas agrees: "There are also points that can be viewed critically.

For example the media.” Selenskyi has had “a conflict” with the press for a long time.

“Now he has signed a decree that brings all media into one platform.

There are now six stations broadcasting the same program on their channel.

When you're zapping through the hotel in the evening, it's always the same faces."

"But that's not very democratic," interjects Bartsch.

And Lanz takes it as an opportunity to criticize the German press: "It's a perspective that we very rarely hear here."

The guests at "Markus Lanz" (ZDF) on June 23, 2022.

© Cornelia Lehmann/ZDF

"The rationale is that you want unity in information," says Kortas.

And if you don't participate, you're just kicked out.

"The pro-Poroshenko channels didn't want to take part in this so-called TV marathon and were then removed from the digital broadcast list." Zelenskyi is a very talented communicator and relies mainly on social media.

The military historian Neitzel takes a critical view of the overall situation.

“The EU has outsourced the resolution of this conflict to Washington.

The Americans supply most of the weapons."

They train the Ukrainian soldiers.

You have the best connections.

It is actually your turn, but the conflict comes "at the wrong time" for the USA.

The strategic focus for the US is actually China.

Military historian Neitzel misses the federal government's strategy: "It's poking around in the fog."

Neitzel sees the solution in rapid arms deliveries.

Heavy weapons are absolutely necessary.

You have to show Putin: "No matter what you do, we keep Ukraine so strong that you'll bite your teeth." Germany has even done more than others.

The French gave up howitzers "that they wanted to get rid of anyway".

But “the Germans have given up their most modern guns.

that's a cut in your own flesh."

However, high ranks in the Bundeswehr would lack clear leadership from the government.

There is no political strategy.

"It's a poke in the fog."

Lanz: "They send me to the front with six magazines.

Six!"

Neitzel very clearly contradicts the left-wing man Bartsch, who relies on diplomacy: "It's about the question: Will Ukraine survive or not?"

Lanz reports dwindling motivation.

From Ukrainian soldiers saying, “They send me to the front with six magazines.

Six!” Neitzel summarizes: “They send them to their deaths.” But there is a very high morale.

Bartsch steps in.

"That's really not correct, Mr. Neitzel." Morale had "suffered enormously" because he had the relevant information.

"If you have the goal of regaining Ukrainian soil, you need an army that is many times superior," Bartsch points out and comes to the conclusion: "That is unthinkable."

Historian Neitzel: "We all want this shitty war to finally end."

Neitzel ventures a look into the future: "My prognosis would be that the war will not continue indefinitely with this intensity.

That Putin then says: So, armistice.

And then the West has to act somehow.

Then the question is: what now?” History has shown that there have been many endless wars that have brought no result.

“Russia and the Ottoman Empire have been at war for hundreds of years.

"We all want this fucking war to end."

Berlin: Putin watched in Afghanistan, ate popcorn and laughed

“Time is a weapon for Putin,” Jessica Berlin interjects.

"Putin watched very closely last year during the collapse in Afghanistan."

He now knows what to do.

"He watched, ate popcorn and laughed.

"The decisive question is: What can you get out of negotiations for Ukraine," says Bartsch, and Berlin warns: Giving up areas also means leaving your own people to this fate.

"We have seen what is happening in the areas." What Ukraine has been doing to the Russian minority in eastern Ukraine for years: "Systematic torture, rape and murder."

In vain Bartsch warns against further escalation.

the discussion is at a difficult point.

As soon as the left-wing politician addresses the issue of diplomacy, everyone talks at once.

He can hardly finish a straight sentence.

"Markus Lanz" on the Ukraine war: Our hypocrisy is Putin's best weapon

Bartsch states resignedly: "I think it's still reasonable if people talk about the solution." Lanz wants to know whether he has to admit that NATO is "ultimately a good thing after all".

Bartsch squirms, maneuvers around.

Despite repeated inquiries from the moderator, he does not want to make a clear statement.

Berlin criticizes “this aberism”, the constant objections, the weighing up.

This "Oh, who's to blame..." is pure hypocrisy, and "our hypocrisy is Putin's best weapon."

Bartsch recalls that German troops have already been in Kyiv and in front of Moscow.

"Reluctance is appropriate." A sentence for which he was criticized from all sides.

And the historian Neitzel of all people replies: "That's ridiculous.

This whole story box, I can't take it anymore."

Bartsch sticks to it: Germany has a different responsibility.

Conclusion of the talk with Markus Lanz:

After a few minutes, the program was at a point similar to that of the Ukraine war: lost.

As a spectator, you really only longed for a quick end.

None of the discussants was able to draw attention to themselves.

Gains in knowledge: none.