Interview | Zhang Guojun hopes to build a law-abiding society and make it clear to the next generation: seeking ideals cannot harm the heaven and the law

After experiencing the political movement of Occupy Central and the anti-amendment bill, what happened to the rule of law in Hong Kong in the "post-national security era" is like the judgment gap between the political yellow and blue.

The government believes that violent destruction and "illegal justice" seriously impact the rule of law; Beijing has taken steps to reshape the constitutional order, "improve the electoral system" and formulate the "Hong Kong National Security Law"; and the rapid deterioration of government power constraints.

How to judge the state of the rule of law is crucial for reshaping society.

In the new government, Zhang Guojun, the first deputy secretary of the Department of Justice in charge of education and promotion of the rule of law, accepted an exclusive interview with "Hong Kong 01", pointing out that in recent years, in cases such as "black violence", it has been seen that young people have a deviated understanding of the rule of law. At the time, he discussed "illegal justice" in court: "The judge clearly stated that this is a perverse reason, and it is necessary for the next generation to understand that it is the responsibility of the Attorney General!" He gave an example of how universal suffrage and equal rights are called "righteousness", which is very subjective. However, breaking the law is quite objective, and the government will “make it clear” through education on the rule of law that in a law-abiding society, the next generation can still legitimately pursue their ideals within the space allowed by the law.

Zhang Guojun pointed out that the "National Security Law" is a new law, and social concerns and worries are normal, but with the accumulation of precedents, the "red line" will become clearer.

A few days before the visit, the police arrested two administrators of the social page "Civil servant Secrets" on charges of "incitement" related to national security. The social media immediately triggered a panic shutdown of the page. Zhang Guojun did not respond directly to whether Hong Kong was in a clean-up phase or whether there was fear. The atmosphere only emphasizes that "the rule of law has never changed, and the same ruler is used." Only those who try to cross the red line will question the blurring of legal boundaries.

Only those who violate the law first feel that the law is a weapon and a threat. For law-abiding people, the law is not a weapon, but a defense tool to protect individual liberties and rights.

Zhang Guojun

Objective "illegal", subjective "righteousness"

Tai Yaoting, a former associate professor of the Faculty of Law of the University of Hong Kong, proposed in 2014 that he would strive for universal suffrage through "civil disobedience", which set off the prelude to "Occupy Central", and the term "illegal justice" became popular among the people.

In the following social movements, whether it was the Mong Kok riots in 2016 or the turmoil over the amendment of the Fugitive Offenders Ordinance in 2019, attacking the law has become a means of expressing dissatisfaction and a new concept of political protest.

When Zhang Guojun commented on the state of the rule of law in Hong Kong, he pointed out that in different cases in recent years, young people have misunderstood the concept of the rule of law: "There are young defendants who will constantly emphasize 'violation of law and justice' before sentencing, but the judge makes it clear, This "righteousness" is what it is, and it is subjective! Some people think that universal suffrage is "righteousness", so breaking the law requires universal suffrage; It’s a very subjective understanding.” However, breaking the law is very objective, and the legal provisions exist objectively, and everyone must abide by them.

He described that freedom and the rule of law are like air and water, and both are equally important. "The more you want to enjoy freedom and rights, the more you need to maintain a society under the rule of law, otherwise it is impossible to pursue both the rule of law and freedom." He emphasized that once There is no rule, no radius, and everyone will pursue "what they think is good", and the society will be in chaos.

You blatantly violate the law because of your subjective pursuits, and when you go to court, you cannot expect the judge to exonerate you from criminal responsibility because of your subjective pursuits.

The judge said that this is impossible, and breaking the law is breaking the law, and you must bear the relevant legal consequences.

Zhang Guojun

+2

The outside world can judge whether the prosecution is reasonable through the judgment

However, whether the rule of law in Hong Kong can still demonstrate justice, restrict government power, and protect human rights has been criticized.

In the 2021 international ranking of the rule of law released by the World Justice Project, Hong Kong dropped 14 places from the previous year to 45th globally in the ranking of “restrictions on government power”, while “fundamental rights” dropped 16 places to 54th.

International public opinion will directly point the finger at the National Security Law in Hong Kong. The United Nations Human Rights Committee has completed its review of the human rights situation in Hong Kong earlier. In the report, it is concerned about the law enforcement agencies' general interpretation of the National Security Law, causing a large number of citizen groups to suspend operations or leave Hong Kong, directly requesting Repeal the National Security Law.

Zhang Guojun believes that these doubts often come from "generalized impressions", "some of us think it is inaccurate, or even false descriptions", but it is not easy to reverse the inherent impression.

He emphasized that any human rights-related cases will eventually be brought to the courts, and the proceedings will be conducted under public scrutiny. The government has not changed the usual prosecution principles. "If someone violates the law, we will file a lawsuit if we have evidence. Of course, the "Prosecution Code" lists them all. Considering public policies and interests, some cases may not be handled through prosecution, but in other ways. This objectively is in the "Prosecution Code", which has not changed in the past, and everyone does the same."

The prosecution did not have sufficient objective evidence, and the Department of Justice did not follow the prosecution guidelines.

After a fair trial, in the case of legal evidence and public interest, whether the prosecution made is reasonable to convict the defendant, each judge has an objective judgment, and the public can judge for themselves.

Zhang Guojun

Zhang Guojun emphasized that any human rights-related cases will eventually be tried by the courts, and the process will be conducted under public supervision, and the government has not changed its usual prosecution principles.

(Photo by Liang Pengwei)

Reshaping the rule of law in the purge stage?

In addition to words and rumors, legal education may come from feelings.

The "Hong Kong National Security Law" was promulgated the year before last, which quelled the chaos. Just as Zhang Guojun felt, "If you go out at home at night, I think you don't need to worry about being attacked for no reason."

However, there is another feeling in society. Citizen groups are worried about violating the National Security Law and will be disbanded and suspended. The “crime of incitement” rarely cited in the past half century has been frequently used. catching, triggering the closing tide of similar "pumping" pages.

Zhang Guojun reiterated that as long as he abides by the law, there is no need to worry about stepping on the red line. "On the contrary, people who question the red line are often the same people who try to cross the red line. They will say, "I don't know how far the red line is." He denied that there is uncertainty in the current law, emphasizing that if there is no violation of the law, nothing will happen. If there is evidence for breaking the law, law enforcement agencies will enforce the law, and if there is evidence, they will file a lawsuit. "This is the rule of law."

As for whether the relevant national security crimes cause pressure and fear, he said that "anyone who has any opinion is free."

Zhang Guojun also pointed out that the "National Security Law" is a new law, and each clause will be challenged by the defendant's lawyers from different angles. In the future, with the accumulation of cases, the society will have a better understanding of the red line. The case "is more often mentioned in public education, so that it is easier for everyone to understand and grasp, and it will not cause worry about 'the red line is on the edge'."

Frankly speaking, I don't know why he is considering closing it, as long as it is in the daily comments on social media, if I don't think about breaking the law and I really don't worry about it, at least I don't have a SOCIAL MEDIA (social account).

But of course some people do it. Because of the reason, I have no way to comment. Everyone has different opinions. The most important thing is to keep the ruler consistent and the lines clear. This message needs to be clearly and reinforced.

Zhang Guojun

Make it clear to the next generation: Pursuing ideals cannot harm nature

The Department of Justice has launched the "Vision 2030 - Focus on the Rule of Law" plan two years ago. One of its goals is to deepen the society's understanding of the rule of law. Cheung Kwok-kwan said that the observance of the law at the level of life and the understanding of the constitutional order are equally important.

He emphasized that he did not intend to influence the political views and ideas of different people, and hoped that under the rule of law, the next generation could pursue their ideals, "But society does have some boundaries, you can't harm the world, you can't affect the overall interests, it's a matter between individuals and society. Balance. Do it properly, instead of seeing it in the past, to hurt people's freedom, personal injury, or threaten property, I hope people will kneel down and accept your ideas, I think this is exactly the same. A generation speaks clearly."

In the future, the Department of Justice will cooperate with different policy bureaux such as education, youth youth, security, etc. to coordinate the promotion of legal education, and to explain the concept of the rule of law in a more "down-to-earth" way, which is far more useful than citing scriptures.

He cited Secretary for Justice Lin Dingguo, who earlier explained the US sanctions with the bullying behavior of the cartoon "Doraemon" fat tiger, and also used actor Stephen Chow's movie line "If you have to add a deadline to this love, I hope It is 10,000 years.” He explained that it will remain unchanged for 50 years, and thinks that the general public has quite a response: “As soon as people hear it, they will understand that 50 years is just a sign of longevity and will not change; It's not that I don't love you in 10,001 years, the number just means that it doesn't need to change for a long time."

Zhang Guojun said that the interpretation of "One Country, Two Systems" and the Basic Law requires the public to "hear it clearly, and after listening to it, it will be taken for granted and (feel) quite natural."

Recalling the dangers of others who read law before 97, Zhang Guojun has been hired before graduation: it is not "medicine" first to stabilize the political assistant of the deputy bureau. Jianlian Zhang Guojun: Facilitate the work of the Deputy Secretary of Justice Li Jiachao's team