Natália Pasternak: "The anti-vaccine movement grew with Bolsonaro"

Brazilian microbiologist Natália Pasternak. Courtesy

Natália Pasternak (46 years old, São Paulo) was the voice of reason in a Brazil taken over by fake news about the pandemic.

Day in, day out, this microbiologist and science communicator, director of the Cuestión de Ciencia Institute, wrote columns or appeared on television to deny the continuous river of falsehoods, from the use of unproven medications to doubts about vaccines.

She participated as an expert in the parliamentary commission that ended up accusing President Jair Bolsonaro of crimes against humanity for managing the crisis.

Despite the end of the pandemic, which left 660,000 deaths in the country, the promoter fears that the president's speech has caught on and will have lasting consequences if he does not invest again in vaccination campaigns.

"We are at risk of seeing diseases like polio or measles that we haven't had in a long, long time," she says in a videoconference interview from New York, where she is a researcher at Columbia University.

Ask.

You and other disseminators were targeted for debunking falsehoods about covid-19.

How did you experience that?

Response.

Nobody likes to be defamed or cursed on a daily basis.

I was attacked by senators.

One did a PowerPoint presentation on me with a bunch of lies about my resume.

She said that she was not a doctor, which I never said she was.

I am a microbiologist and he repeated: "This woman is not a doctor and she has never published a scientific article."

Just look at my resume.

There's my job.

Then there were defamatory videos about me saying that I wasn't even a biology graduate, that my career was all a lie, that I was built by

[the media group]

It was so surreal that it was even funny.

P.

How do you evaluate the government's response to the pandemic?

R.

It was bad, very bad even compared to countries like the United States, which did not have an exemplary response either.

A country that does not even have a public health system.

Brazil could have done much better.

It had the capacity because it is a country with a tradition, both in the development of vaccines and in campaigns.

In terms of medicines, it was a disaster.

The Ministry of Health itself promoted unproven drugs, such as chloroquine and ivermectin.

And even when other countries abandoned that idea, Brazil continued.

It was official disinformation and that is very dangerous, because no matter how bad the government is, people trust what comes from the Ministry of Health.

On the issue of social distancing and the use of masks, there have never been clear public policies.

Fortunately,

P.

What did you think when the president said that covid was a "little flu"?

R.

When he said it right at the beginning of the pandemic I think he still had the excuse of ignorance.

Now, when it was confirmed that it was a serious disease and that it caused death, this statement became cruel and disrespectful.

And she kept saying it.

The president recorded videos imitating people dying of suffocation.

Seeing a head of state doing that is incredible.

Q.

Could part of those 660,000 deaths have been prevented?

A.

Yes. An article in

magazine shows that three quarters of deaths in Brazil could have been avoided with public policies to encourage the use of masks, vaccination.

With public policies based on science.

Q.

Could Bolsonaro's speech have long-term consequences?

You have spoken of a growth in anti-vaccine sentiment.

R.

Bolsonaro will have consequences in the perception of science, health.

That is sure.

The damage he has caused will last.

The anti-vaccine movement is not caused by Bolsonaro.

It existed before, but it was a niche movement, focused on a wealthier elite and closely tied to the rejection of chemicals.

Brazil was a country that previously had no doubts about vaccines.

It has always had very high immunization rates and a vaccination program to make many first world countries jealous.

With Bolsonaro and the growth of the extreme right, this movement began to link the issue to the freedom to vaccinate, grew and gained a political and ideological aspect.

P.

Will the country need time to recover that lost confidence?

R.

It will need time and investment, because we lost many years of vaccination campaigns.

With Bolsonaro, investment has drastically decreased.

Then we will have to rebuild the National Immunization Program and invest heavily in clarifying the importance, necessity, and safety of vaccines.

In 2021, we had a polio vaccination coverage rate of 67%, up from 90%.

This drop is extremely worrying.

If we can't restore vaccination programs, we risk seeing diseases like polio or measles that we haven't seen in a long, long time.

Q.

What do you expect from the next government?

R.

I hope that it brings scientists closer to Parliament, the Executive, to the real construction of public policies.

There are countries that have scientific and advisory councils to the Government.

Ministers don't have to be scientists, but you do need to have a conversation.

I think this is the most important thing for the next president, who has science as an ally.

In

this Government has certainly lost respect for science.

It is a denialist government that denies the reality that does not suit it.

Subscribe here to the EL PAÍS América

and receive all the key information on current affairs in the region