Ram Ben Barak: "So what if there were elections? The street is the judge? The street also lynches sometimes" - voila! news

MK Ben Barak: "Not comparing, but Hitler also came to power democratically" (Walla system!)

Shortly before the storms surrounding the statements regarding football on Shabbat and gender segregation, MK Ram Ben Barak Mish Atid attacked the religious Zionist party, calling it a "dangerous and anti-democratic party" and accused it of trying to apply the laws of Halacha to public life. They will be wearing headscarves," he said, causing a stir. The next day, presenter Yanon Magal appeared live with a fashionable Shabis on his face. "Nothing unusual," he reassured the viewers, "I just heard the things and I'm getting ready for what's to come."

Ben Barak was really not amused by this: "We are in an era where no matter what I say and what I meant, the opponents will take it where they want, regardless of the truth," he claimed.

"I meant that the state channel would make a decision to impose modest clothing on the presenters so as not to offend religious feelings, but people said that I was against the head covering. I am not against the head covering, I employed a consultant in my office who wears a hijab. I am sure that this will happen in the future, we are already talking About gender separation between men and women and in a little while they will say, the television is state-owned, the taxpayers finance it and among them are ultra-Orthodox and religious people whose feelings should not be hurt."

"But the religious are watching and radicalization has taken place there as well. In the more liberal places that were once involved, such as youth movements, today there is gender segregation. I am very afraid that in the last elections we voted for a Jewish state and not a liberal one."

"If it had been someone else it would have been funnier, because the problem with Magel is that he always serves someone, and I actually later saw his friends also go on the air and on the networks with a headscarf and I realized that the loyal soldiers were instructed to keep this story in the headlines as much as possible to please the leader Supreme Netanyahu."

"I didn't announce. I answered the question if there was a candidate for the primary, and I said I would run."

"The announcement is a challenge, but if you ask me if I will run in the primaries in the future, my answer is yes. Because it is impossible for there to be a party that constantly announces that there is a primary and there will be only one candidate. Do I think that if there were elections I would have a chance to win? The answer is no, Because Lapid has proven himself in every aspect, in leadership and decision-making. But when there is a primary, it is good to have more than one candidate in order to introduce the party to a course of democratic action and also to shut the mouths of the detractors who constantly shout that we are not democratic."

"No".

"I said appropriate for now."

"I think very highly of myself. Although I seem to be a modest person, I have quite a bit of self-esteem. I think I deserve to be the head of the party. Today, my chances are not high, but it is worth entering this contest both so that I know what my situation is and so that the party can see that it is Democratic. It's in her interest. I hope I won't be the only one to run, because we must not be in a situation where if someone wants to run, they are deleted."

"Ofer Shelah announced the contest against Lapid at a very problematic time. Even before it was decided that primaries would be held in the party, in the middle of the discussions on how it is even right to do this, he already jumped up and said, 'Here and now I want to contest'."

Stirring up storms.

Ram Ben Barak (Photo: Shlomi Gabai)

So that's why he's no longer there?

"Lapid founded the party, built it with ten fingers, acquired the public's trust and paid the price. He brought Shelah to the party and me. We did not come from heaven. We were a young party that after ten years decided it was ready to move to a democratic process of internal elections. But Ofer wanted to make moves here and now, when nothing was consolidated. To this day, we are still checking how to do it properly. We do not want to be like parties that were destroyed from the inside by the primaries, and we do not want unworthy Knesset members to come to us through the primaries. That is why the process is slow and careful And the first step is elections for the leadership of the party. When that happens, there should be candidates other than Lapid. This contributes to strengthening the leader and the party."

"He said the timing wasn't good and I think he's right. The problem with me is that I'm too honest. When they asked me if I'd run, I said yes, because I'm a person who's used to telling the truth. I should have said there's still time. But it didn't cloud anything. Lapid and I We have an exceptional relationship. We hang out every day. We consult on many things. There is no friction between us."

The Yitzhak Rabin Center assigned him a spacious office and there he sits for an interview, a tall man in jeans and a button-down shirt, a symbolic contrast to the farmer-manager and the senior politician.

Sunset in the window, mists over the Azrieli towers in the most vibrant city in the world.

But Ben Barak looks out with concern.

"I don't know where the new government will take all the good things we have achieved so far," he says sadly.

"I have no problem with the religious and ultra-orthodox public, on the contrary, I very much respect their right to do what they want,

But his intention is to impose the Jewish religious identity on the majority because he sees it as a calling.

The day is near when they will demand a modest dress code in all public service branches, and the shops that are still open on Shabbat will be closed and public transportation will also be completely shut down.

We are already talking about more and more segregated beaches, and we are already asking for separation between women and men in public shows and public transportation."

"Because there are no buses that travel only in Bnei Brak, a bus from Bnei Brak also goes to Beit Shemesh and on the way it passes through public space, which is mostly secular. I don't want to tell them what to do when they rent a private minibus and go to dip in the Dead Sea and the women sit in the front and the men in the back, which will never happen Because the men are always in the front, but in a public park or on public transportation there can be no segregation. If the public wants to hold an event that is closed to itself, and rents a hall or a stage for that purpose, that's perfectly fine, let them do what they want there, separation, partitions, I have no problem with that Just as I don't have a problem with a head covering, but it is impossible for me to go with my wife to a park in Afula where an ultra-Orthodox singer is performing, and if I want to join, my wife will go to one side and I to the other because there are many ultra-Orthodox people there."

"Because the ultra-Orthodox community used to be smaller. And the exemption from conscription was the property of Bnei Brak and Mea Shearim. Today, the ultra-Orthodox communities have grown and the exemption has expanded to less ultra-Orthodox sectors. I spoke to several members of the Shas Knesset who served in the army, I asked what about their children and they told me that they We hope they will go to yeshiva and not to the army.

The evasion of the draft goes out and spills over to the traditional public as well.

I am in favor of an elite of Torah students.

You can choose 100 Iloyim and give them all the conditions in the world so that they continue to study and study the Torah and the Gemara, but we cannot have 30 thousand Iloyim, some of whom are registered and do not study and some study and work in the dark to receive the subsidies.

When you have the option, and especially when you want to raise the allowances, it encourages you to double and triple the inequality.

Nowhere in the world is there a situation where a growing community does not bear the burden of the entire public." The

"I also have complaints about religious Zionism. What is the arrangement of the Hesder yeshiva? My son did a year of service at his own expense in a boarding school with children from ruined families, and then full military service. But in religious Zionism, anyone who wants to go to a yeshiva will be deferred from service for a year and a half. What is this This privilege that because of political power frees the learners from full military service? And if you don't want your daughters to enlist in the army, they should do full national service, not voluntarily when and as much as they want. In the end, the sector that contributes the most in the army and employment and has no privilege, is the secular sector ".

"Because the ruling structure allows small parties to extort us. They extorted the settlement meetings and extorted the allowances and extorted the broad exemption in order to keep the coalition and it seems completely natural to everyone. The problem is that this has nothing to do with what is about to happen, because the person who is at the head of religious Zionism today is a person who was saved all the legal options to evade conscription and did abbreviated service with breaks to study for a degree and in most of his brazenness he also wants to be the Minister of Defense. He can be the Minister of Defense for the evaders. He will explain to them how to evade in the most correct way. Not to mention Ben Gabir who will be the Minister of Internal Security, this It's even embarrassing to say this, the person who was convicted of the riots today serves as an inspiration to a group of rioters who throw stones in Hebron and raise a hand against a female soldier. They feel over the top that they are going to have sympathetic representation in the government. The leaders of religious Zionism are unable to say that a guy who burned a 6-year-old boy together with his parents is terrorist,And they are unable to say that Baruch Goldstein, who murdered 29 worshipers, is a terrorist, because for them there is no such thing as Jewish terrorism."

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"Declared dealing at a problematic time."

Ofer Shelah (photo: official website, Knesset spokeswoman Adina Velman)

What do you predict will happen?

"Mary citizens. The secularists will say this is enough. We will not go to the army and pay taxes to finance those who do not work and do not serve. The next generation will not be ready to go to wars that the coalition that will send them does not send its sons to fight in, and the public will not accept that it is unable To reach housing and live with dignity while the public he supports receives subsidized housing and plenty of discounts. At some point the young and the old took to the streets. This will not happen tomorrow because the catastrophe is not felt yet, we still live in a modern and relatively safe country, with very good security services that manage to create peace here and ward off the dangers."

If we do not create a delicate balance between Jews and Arabs, God help us, but there are people in the future government who want this explosion, who do not understand the consequences at all and behave irresponsibly.

They think that Gog and Magog will serve them and aspire to the reality of chaos."

"I hope not. The liberal forces, the donors, are stronger than it seems, and I think that the public did eventually take to the streets. Because we don't have another country, this is not a casual statement. I also don't think it's better to live somewhere else. For me, the option of leaving does not exist at all . I will never leave, I will fight for this house until the situation is better."

Those who enlist for significant service will receive the conditions of a permanent army and also benefits such as discounts in property taxes and tuition fees to reward him.

This also includes the Arabs.

If an Arab wants to serve in the paratroopers, we will allow him, and if he says he cannot serve in the Gaza Strip because he has family in Gaza, let him volunteer in the fire brigade."

"Yes. We will have to increase the Shin Bet by several hundred or thousands.

We need an army that will be the people's army.

We have no privilege to be less than that or we will lose the war.

We have budgets to choose the best and allow young people to serve according to their needs."

"Quite a few ultra-Orthodox Knesset members told me, 'This is an excellent direction, but we cannot support it publicly.'"

"We need to start , and eventually everyone will join and get used to it.

I learned at the institution that if they come to you and say, 'You can't do this and that operation because you'll see how many alarm systems and how many helicopters and how many electric fences protect the facility,' you should say, 'Guys, if we don't start, we probably won't succeed.'

We were beginners and in practice in 90% of the operations we also succeeded."

Ben Barak represents considerable sections of the public who fear the government that will be formed and the strengthening of the right and the ultra-Orthodox.

They are busy prophesying wrath, but not everyone is in a hurry to conduct a home inspection and take stock of themselves.

"There is no doubt that mistakes were made," says Ben Barak.

"The biggest mistake was the Labor party not uniting with Meretz despite a very generous agreement that guaranteed them 10 mandates regardless of the election results. The Arab parties were also a big surprise that we were not aware of, when half an hour before the closing of the lists it was learned that Balad was going to withdraw.

I have no regrets that Balad is not in the Knesset. It is an anti-Israel party and twice we asked to disqualify it from the Knesset, but its move affected the results on election day. At the same time, Netanyahu managed to get the Likudniks to vote with false propaganda when he put the faces of Lapid, Abbas, Tibi And Lieberman on one sign, when it's completely clear that Tibi was part of the opposition and cooperated with Netanyahu and not with us. But most people don't know the nuances."

"This whole argument is crooked. If you think you don't have enough of an audience, don't compete. What about me and Meretz? They want to get up tomorrow morning and leave all the territories, return the Jordan Valley, there are huge gaps between us, and if Meretz doesn't know how to bring her audience, With your honor, please get off the political stage. She cannot ask Mish Atid to explain to the audience why to vote for Meretz. People voted for Lapid because he was an excellent prime minister who took political risks. They saw how he built a coalition with the right and the left, passed social laws and took advantage of the unique opportunity- Once to sign an unprecedented agreement on borders with Lebanon, which Netanyahu should congratulate every day because he did his job. His policy was that there should be two major parties in the State of Israel, and not one major and mediocre one."

"You can be Shas and say that we will lower the prices, but when you sit in the Ministry of Economy and Welfare and in the Prime Minister's chair - you realize that things are deeper and there is a global crisis and post-Corona.

We didn't flower slogans and empty promises, we did things that hadn't been done in years.

For example, a war on monopolies and reforms against the capitalists who have never touched them.

We made 80,000 construction starts for the housing crisis, but these are processes that take time, and unfortunately, the next government will benefit from what we did.

But she will destroy it, so everything is fine."

"We put everything behind us.

We thought he made a mistake, today he also knows it and therefore will not repeat the mistake.

He thought that joining Netanyahu was the problem, today he understands that when you join a corrupt person, you give him kosher."

"I didn't compare him to Hitler."

Benjamin Netanyahu (Photo: Reuven Castro)

What do you think of Smotrich's demands?

"Smotrich is a megalomaniac who thinks he is motivated by some messianic and racist divine mission. Basically, he is a very talented guy and has the ability to organize and execute, so this combination is very dangerous. His arrogance to be the Minister of Defense is unfathomable. For this reason alone, I hope this government collapses in on itself I keep asking myself, what does the election of a prime minister with three charges, and in Smotrich, Deri and Ben Gvir say about us as a society."

"So what if there were elections? The street is the judge? The street also lynches sometimes. There are norms that must not be crossed, and we crossed them. We are ready to consider a person who has been convicted twice of crimes to be minister of finance and a person who did short military service and who specialized in provocations against Palestinians should be ministers. If We've reached a point where we accept it, where else can we deteriorate."

"No way. Netanyahu is the one who trained Ben Gabir, and after that he united him with Smotrich, and he is the one who gives up core studies to the ultra-Orthodox. Once we train him once, it will only go and deteriorate. When we formed the government of change, we sat with Gideon Sa'ar and Naftali Bennett and Meretz , all the extremes who did not believe that they sat together, because they are honest people who are willing to bridge disputes for the benefit of the state and no indictment hangs against them. But if we sit under a person who has an indictment against him alongside other cases like the submarines and the Miron disaster, for which we have not received answers, we will be complicit in the crime It is better to sit in the opposition and fight him. And whoever thinks that Netanyahu will ever agree to sit with us - is wrong. He is trying to get us to come to him and ask to join so that after that they will say, if you are ready to accept all the things he is doing, you are partners in these moves. But Netanyahu will never will leave the right because he is thinking about the next elections. He did it once in 2013 and paid the price, and since then he will not repeat the mistake. The right and the ultra-Orthodox are his base,Without them, he will not win the elections."

"Because Netanyahu works for Netanyahu. He is not right-wing and he is not left-wing, neither the periphery nor the economy. In recent years, Netanyahu has only aimed at political survival, how to stay in Balfour with his family. All his actions are aimed at this thing and therefore he has no red lines at all. In order to stay in power he Ready to create a situation where one half of the nation becomes an enemy of the other half and foster division and create an image that everyone wants to bully him, led by the courts, the prosecutor's office, the police and the media. This is a person who is ready to bring Otzma Yehudit into the Knesset and ensure that there will be no core studies and speeches in Congress against a sitting president and ruin our relations With the Americans, everything before elections is just to gain the sympathy of the public."

"Netanyahu knows how to work with the right-wing media, bypass the state media and star in the networks. And he has no problem spreading false messages. He didn't invent it. Trump does it and all the promotion companies in third world countries do it. I think one of our problems was that we didn't know how to use On TikTok as a central platform. One out of five soldiers voted for Ben Gabir because he was there and we weren't."

"Lapid did his apprenticeship in the artillery and then full military service in 'the camp'. Everyone does military service according to their abilities."

"Because she didn't understand why she was being called for one thing and asked about another. I saw Lapid at least twice in faction meetings in front of the cameras saying that he did military service, and I don't understand why when they say about Ben Gabir that he didn't do military service, they immediately attack and say, Lapid didn't serve in the army either. What is this, no IDF spokesperson, no military band, no cyber?

It really doesn't matter if the service is in a patrol of the General Staff or in the newspaper 'Bamahana'. The main thing is that Lapid did not evade and did full military service."

"I believe that a large part of the public that elected Netanyahu did not understand what he was getting into. After his voters see what kind of government will be formed, they will also join us. At the end of every four years there are elections. It goes by quickly when you're having fun."

Throughout his tenure in the Knesset, Ben Barak stood out for his willingness to rush and react from the gut, a fact that entangled him in a chain of embarrassing statements.

The last one was just a month ago, when during a pre-election debate on the Likud and the justice system he said, "Apart from thousands of differences and I don't compare it to anything, Hitler came to power democratically."

Things caused a stir.

"First of all, the word 'Hitler' never came out of my mouth in a personal context," he explains.

"I was talking about regimes, and I didn't mention Netanyahu at all. I will also never compare anyone to the Nazi monster, but you have to take into account that many things that happen democratically can lead to dire consequences."

"I was talking about the judicial system and the overcoming clause. If it passes, there will be no limit and any government will be able to decide what it wants. If it has a majority, it will be able to reduce the civil rights of LGBT people and deny them the right of the minority to demonstrate in its favor, such as which is already being demanded with Jewish power regarding the pride parade.

Today it's LGBT and tomorrow it's the elderly and the disabled and Arabs, and after that another government that doesn't repeal the law won't let the ultra-Orthodox demonstrate. It's not a matter of right and left at all. The court protects minorities but it knows what its limits are, and that's why in the last 40 years a few have been disqualified Very laws. That's why I mentioned that most of the dictators who take over the courts, came to power democratically and not in a military coup."

"It's a shame really, because the next day Netanyahu was on Twitter and TikTok and said, 'Did you hear? Ram Ben Barak compared me to Hitler'. Who compared him to Hitler? Then I had to clarify that I wasn't talking about him but about democracy."

"It takes time to realize, perhaps too much time, that the truth is not of interest to the other side, and the only thing that interests him is to slander the other side and score points for it."

"The blacks and the whites were said to emphasize ideological or perceptual differences. I could have also said north and south. I wanted to present two contrasts, it was not a matter of course in the context of people or groups. When you are on the radio, and when you don't know what the next question will be, sometimes the choice of words is missed. It's clear that I should have said north and south instead of black and white, I was naive enough to think that it wouldn't be taken the wrong way. It's not easy to be a politician here. It's not by chance that these things happen. It serves someone who takes statements and twists them to his needs."

"But when Amsalam says what he said about the President of the Supreme Court, he did not accidentally choose a wrong image like I did, who said black and white and meant North and South. When they say about the President of the Supreme Court that she drinks and gets drunk, it diminishes the institution she heads to make it drunk."

"And it's still a very serious statement, because it eats away at the credibility of the court. If they explain all day how bad he is, then it's clear that his status will be devalued in the eyes of the public. It would be good if we were all more careful with our language and it would be good if people on the other side didn't have pens on every statement".

"It was an unfortunate statement, I meant the ego problems he has, which is why he had a problem sitting next to Prime Minister Lapid and receiving a briefing from him. I shouldn't have said that, and I apologized for it in real time. It was a sincere apology. I don't think he has Mental problems, and of course you shouldn't use an illness to hurt someone, but I'm human, we all slip our tongues."

"It is absolutely clear that this will happen. Why go along with what I say? Amir Ohana's name was brought up as Knesset Speaker and I read in the newspaper that the ultra-Orthodox whispered to Netanyahu that they should not appoint him because it would be difficult for them to sit with a gay Knesset Speaker. I am very afraid that if Gay wants to advance to the position A senior official in a government office controlled by rabbis and their representatives, he will probably not be able to advance without going back into the closet and hiding his tendencies. This was a correct statement for the time and correct for today."

"Ten statements in four years is not a lot. Yair Golan is a man with a lot of rights whose mouth and heart are equal. I don't agree with all his statements, but I prefer people like him a thousand times over people who try to embellish reality and not see it as it is. I really hope not I will change and that I will continue to say what I think and that I will not be afraid of criticism. One of our problems is that we try to be nice and stately and therefore reach a situation where people with very dark views are in the Knesset today. I am willing to absorb the occasional media storm and explain myself, provided that I continue to say what I think And I will not think about how to please everyone. I will probably have more statements like this, but those who are not willing to pay prices should not come to this profession. Lapid once told me that everyone has their day when they say something stupid that they are sorry for. No one is perfect Except for my wife."

"Megaloman".

Smotrich (Photo: Reuven Castro)

הקריירה של בן ברק חובקת עולם. תחילתה בתפקידי מפתח במוסד, איש צללים בשליחות ישראל שמחליף פנים וזהויות. ב-1991 נעצר בקפריסין כשהתחזה עם עוד שלושה סוכנים לתייר, במהלך מבצע שנכשל להשתלת מכשירי האזנה בשגרירות איראן בניקוסיה. "המטרה הייתה לגלות מידע על רון ארד באמצעות האזנה לשיחות על גורלו", הוא מספר. "אבל כשהשוטרים קופצים עליך ואתה מבין שגילו אותך, העולם נהפך מסוכן ביון חשאי שחושב שהוא יכול לעשות מה שהוא רוצה, לעצור שכבול לכיסא וצריך לבקש רשות לעשות פיפי. אבל קפריסין של אותם זמנים לא הייתה מדינה מאיימת במיוחד והמעצר לא השאיר בי שום טראומה".

מבצע נוסף שהתפרסם היה כשבן ברק פיקד על אגף מבצעים במוסד וביחד עם אנשיו הצליחו להוכיח את קיומו של כור גרעיני בסוריה. "הצלחנו להביא גם את המיקום וגם פרטים נוספים על המתקן", הוא נזכר. "ארבעה חודשים לאחר מכן הוא הופצץ, ברגע האחרון לפני שהפך להיות חם ואז המזרח התיכון היה נראה לגמרי אחרת".

אתה מתגעגע לשירות?

"תמיד. לא לריצה ברחובות ליסבון כדי לצוד טרוריסטים כי את זה עשיתי מספיק, אבל אני מתגעגע לאנשים, לאדרנלין, למתח. חייתי חיים כפולים. הייתי רם בן ברק מנהלל עם אישה ושלושה ילדים, ואז מגיעה מונית ואני נוסע ויוצא ממנה מישהו אחר לגמרי. יום אחד אתה במלון 'ריץ' בפריז, 5,000 דולר ללילה, מתחכך עם מי שמתחכך, ויום למחרת אני יושב בסרבל של עובד ניקיון מול איזה חור בדרום פריז ומחכה שאיש פח"ע יצא מהבית. זה עולם של היפוכים וניגודים ואף יום לא דומה ליום שהיה או לזה שיהיה".

היית מועמד לראשות המוסד עם עוד שניים, ובסוף יוסי כהן נבחר במקומך.

"זו פריבילגיה של ראש ממשלה לבחור ראש מוסד. אז אין לי טענות לנתניהו או ליוסי כהן".

כשעברת לעבוד בשוק הפרטי בחברת המימד החמישי לצד גנץ, נפתחה חקירה בשל ממצאי מבקר המדינה על התקשרות בין המשטרה לחברה לביצוע עסקת רכש שלא באמצעות מכרז.

"באותו זמן לא הייתי בכלל בעל תפקיד בחברה, אבל מעבר לעובדה שהסיפור הזה שקרי לחלוטין, אם הייתה בעיה בהתנהלות, היא של המשטרה, לא של החברה, כי המשטרה חייבת במכרזים, לא אנחנו. ועדיין זה לא הפריע לאנשים להגיד לנו, 'מה עם הארבעה מיליון שגנבתם מהמשטרה?'".

הוא נשוי לרופאה המטו־אונקולוגית ומתגורר בנהלל: "קר שם בחורף, חם שם בקיץ, יש מלא זבובים ויתושים, מסריח קצת מהפרות, אבל זה המקום הכי יפה בעולם". אחיו זוהר נהרג במלחמת יום הכיפורים: "זה משנה חיים בעיקר להורים שלי, אבל הם חתמו לי על אישור ללכת ליחידה קרבית כי הם הבינו את עניין ההגשמה האישית".

יש הבדל גדול בין 40 שנות שירות בצבא ובמוסד לבין השירות הפוליטי בכנסת, איך מגשרים עליו?

"I promised myself that no matter what position I will be in, I will not change. I will not adapt to myself the mannerisms of a leader of the people, neither as the head of a department nor as the deputy head of the Mossad, and certainly not like champions who think that the sun shines for them from a certain place. Even in politics, I lead my life in such a way that I always remember that I Moshavnik, because there is no difference between someone who was the head of an operations department and someone who bakes bread, both serve the state in their own way, provided they do it honestly."

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