"An overreach clause is necessary," states former Jerusalem District Court judge Zvi Segal in an interview held at his home on the occasion of the publication of his autobiography, "Ma'ain and Dembaryot Chai" (published by "Yediot Books"). Segal himself is not an enthusiastic supporter of the overcoming clause, but thinks there is no choice but to enact it.
"The last word should be the High Court, that if there is a law enacted by the Knesset and it violates rights, it is dangerous that a majority of 61 can overcome it.
At the same time, some rightly claim that 61 MKs is the majority of the people and he can overcome the High Court, he can take the authority he himself gave to the court.
In the absence of a constitution, I propose to give the High Court the authority to disqualify laws, but to make it more difficult for it by having the disqualification be in an expanded composition and with a privileged majority, for example 13 judges out of 15.
"Furthermore, the Knesset should be allowed to enact a clause to override the High Court rulings, but on the condition that there will be some members of the opposition who will join the coalition, a majority of 65 MKs for example. I hear the jurists saying that the High Court should not be touched, it should be understood that half If the people think differently, we must take him into account."
Judges usually say that public opinion is the product of politicians' propaganda.
"This is the opinion of the public. So not to hold a dialogue with the people? Half of the people think otherwise. Our system made a mistake when it did not read the map that is excited about it. Even to those who say that the High Court runs the country, I reply that those who are afraid of the changes should be taken into account.
The rift in the nation is intolerable.
The public is divided.
Need healing.
An escalation clause can lead to undesirable results, but the existing situation is also an undesirable result."
Segal gives an example of a compromise proposed by the High Court for a public dispute, which the jurists are the ones who rejected it. This is due to a petition that challenged the appointment. The High Court did not want to force, and asked to reach a middle compromise.
I'm sorry to say this, but the prosecutor insisted, and Judge Mazuz rejected the compromise. I respect Mazuz, he appeared before me as a witness when I judged the murder case of Judge Adi Azer, it was unnecessary for him."
The bag that hovers above us
Segal was born in Israel when the state was established in 1948.
He studied at the Real Gymnasium in Rishon Lezion and enlisted in the Engineering Corps in 1966. Upon becoming a citizen, he worked as a radiation inspector at the reactor in Dimona, studied law at the Hebrew University and taught citizenship at the high school in Arad.
In 1977, he was qualified as a lawyer and began working at the Southern District Attorney's Office up to the rank of Deputy District Attorney.
In 1983 he was appointed a judge at the Peace Court in Be'er Sheva and eight years later he was promoted to the District Court.
In one of the long chapters in the book, Segal recounts the rebellion of the judges that arose against him in court, a rebellion that he calls the "Beer Sheva Affair".
Like a scene taken from a Netflix series, for which he was transferred to the District Court in Jerusalem, where he was promoted to the position of Vice President, until his retirement in 2017.
As a senior judge, he discussed famous cases such as the murder of Judge Adi Azer, the murderers of Minister Rehavam Zaevi, the perpetrators of the attack at Cafe Hillel, the murder case of Daniel Maoz's parents, the murder case of the terrorist Jack Teitel, the murder case of Hanit Kikos, and the soldier Elor Azaria's appeal against his conviction By killing a neutralized terrorist.
Segal is considered a judge who showed proficiency in the cases before him, and is known for being a "colorful judge", a characteristic that accompanies him throughout his career, for better or for worse, and is also evident in the interview.
He speaks slowly, raises his voice when he wants to emphasize something, pauses to create drama and his hands are not inferior.
You served with the panel of judges who are currently discussing the Netanyahu case. How do you rate them as judges?
"They are excellent judges, I have no doubt that you can trust their decision, if we reach a decision at all."
Ila Hasson asked you in an interview if the judges were able to acquit Netanyahu, and you answered with one word: "No." Is that how you rate them?
"It was a bit taken out of context. This was not my intention. I certainly think that the judges are capable of acquitting the accused. But there are situations, as Prof. Ruth Gavizon said, that hostile communication over time may in extreme cases have an effect. I cannot tell you what the effect of The media about the judges, I know that judges are human beings. In any case, I have known them for years, and they will not be convicted or acquitted because of the noise of the media but according to the evidence."
You write in the book "The judge has firmness, breaking is not an option" in the context of threats you received. A judge can face threats to his family's life but not journalists?
"A judge is a human being and can get stressed, I encountered this with my colleagues. Not with the three judges, about whom I have only good things to say. From a public point of view, I would be happy for this case to disappear from our lives as soon as possible with a plea agreement. Israeli society is polarized. That is what I suggested as a judge In the Alor Azaria case, and it didn't work."
When the split rests on a factual dispute, a decision is needed. After a plea deal, Netanyahu may say "I confessed because they left me no choice, they sewed up a case for me." Aryeh Deri has already lied to the court in a plea deal.
"I don't know how to expect what will happen like you, it's all speculation."
Argument settlement as healing the rift is also speculation.
"So let the case continue with 300 prosecution witnesses, and it is not yet known how many defense witnesses. All the politicians and journalists will be cross-examined there. It will be a ten-year case. All this time it will hover over us, what will our society look like?"
"The chase continues"
The affair that scarred Segal the most, and to which he also devotes an extensive chapter in his new book, is what he calls "an affair behind closed doors."
Segal, along with Judge Moshe Drori and Judge Yoram Noam, were accused of asking the complainant in the rape case to demonstrate in the courtroom the position in which she was raped. "For a month the media drilled and drilled me, it was a very difficult time.
My friend said that his wife is mad at him for being in a relationship with me.
I felt that everything was a complete distortion and a terrible injustice done to me."
The Minister of Justice at the time, Tzipi Livni, demanded that the Commissioner for the Audit of Judges, the late Judge Eliezer Goldberg, look into the matter, and this cleared Segal and his friends completely. "He determined that everything was a conspiracy," declares Segal as someone who wants to put the affair behind him.
I listened to the recording of the discussion, you say to her there "Demonstrate, demonstrate".
"No, no. After her testimony ended, the prosecutor's re-examination came, and it was the prosecutor who asked her in the investigation to return to the details of the rape, and then she was the one who initiated the demonstration. She initiated, so I will not prevent her. She asked to demonstrate, so I told her, 'Demonstrate.' It is impossible to represent a defendant in a dispute that deals with the question of whether or not there was penetration without dealing with it. In the program 'The Source' they distorted the protocol of the hearing. In the end, the prosecutor withdrew the accusation of rape, Goldberg backed me up. After his decision, he received a letter from the complainant's defense attorney from the Nega Center, who wrote that what was described In the media it is not true, and I will add that attorney Roni Aloni Sadovnik, who initiated this complaint against me five years after the trial, also sent me a letter of apology.
But it still haunts me, I lecture in places and I get asked about it.
Even now, on the networks, after I published the book, they continue with it."
Segal ignores one period of his life in his autobiography almost completely - the time when he served as a lawyer in the state prosecutor's office.
"In one of the murder cases in which I was the prosecutor, a police officer approached me, who heard the accused giving a version of the murder. This could have been an additional piece of evidence that could join the others, and I chose not to do anything with it. To my approach, which unfortunately no longer exists, once an indictment is filed - there is no more Completing an investigation and collecting evidence. Filing an indictment? It's over. There is no such thing as an improvement."
And if significant evidence comes, then ignore?
"One of the hearings I had as a judge was in a murder case at a gas station in Jerusalem when the evidence was circumstantial. The defendant's defense claim was an alibi claim. The prosecutor asked to amend the indictment and add evidence, a photograph of the scene, where the defendant is seen at the gas station. A real dilemma: the murdered man's family is in favor Any evidence that will lead to solving the murder; on the other hand, there are rights of the accused. He received evidence from the prosecutor's office, from which he built a defense argument which is an alibi argument."
The photography collapses all his protection.
"Yes, and there is no doubt that if he had this evidence in the evidence submitted to the defense, he would have asserted a different defense argument. But more than that, it creates a situation that even if the judge even rejects the prosecution's request to add evidence, already at an early stage the judge considers the accused to be unreliable. Therefore, when it was possible to obtain the evidence, as in this case, and the enforcement system was negligent, it should not be allowed. An indictment is not a trivial matter, a lawyer moves a person from suspect status to accused status. This is very significant. Judges who allow this build unsound lawyers and investigators If the prosecution relied on the existing evidence for an indictment, let it remain with them."
The faculty has a critical attitude towards the state attorney's office.
He did not forget what happened in the case of Mohammad Fadol, who was detained for a year and a half on the charge of raping a student during a graduation party.
"It happened in a villa near Jerusalem. One of the students disappeared, and after a search she was found naked in the housing unit of the Sudanese Fadol, who worked as a cleaner inside the complex. It turned out, and it is not in dispute, that she got into his bed naked while he was sleeping. They slept and she filed a complaint against him with the police, but She testified that she doesn't remember anything."
The legal dispute in the rape charge was whether Fadol understood that there was actually consent or not.
"Now imagine another story: Let's say that there is a cleaner in the cleaners' room, and an 18-year-old man gets into her bed naked and has sex with her. Who do you think would be charged? Would anyone put this on the agenda? Of course not. A woman gets into a man's bed naked, they lie down , and was it expected of him to not understand that she wanted to sleep with him, and push her out? Not only did we acquit him, the state also paid him compensation for the months of detention."
Deviation from the order?
investigate immediately
What recently agitated Segal was the revelation by "Israel Hayom" according to which in the submarine case the police violated the judge's order which allowed the use of spies on interrogators - and extracted prohibited information.
"I sat for eight years as the vice president of a court that has the authority to approve wiretapping. As soon as I approved, it was clear to me that I was authorizing eavesdropping with a view to the future, forward. There is no authorization to eavesdrop, and certainly not to extract other materials that are not warranted. The publication made me really uncomfortable.
"I called for a compromise."
Gal Hirsch, photo: Gideon Markovich
"Senior attorneys and senior investigators have appeared in front of me many times. I trusted them 100 percent for what they told me, and I was never disappointed. But now it's different. After they found out that there was a deviation from the order, they had to run and expose it, inform the judge. I read that it was exposed Only after Judge Tali Chaimovitz Livnat pressed. Why? Defense attorneys should request and a judge should press for this to happen? If an improper action was taken - and I say if - how do you hide it?
"I know the details only from the media, and with this disclaimer I say that as the vice president who approved orders, I feel uncomfortable. If the prosecutor's office did not know that Pegasus was pumping without authority, then the question arises why the police did not tell them. Is it possible that senior police officers know and do not share with the prosecutor's office? But If and if lawyers knew about it and hid it, it's clearly improper."
The conversation with Gal Hirsch
Segal dedicates the end of the book to the Gal Hirsch case.
On August 25, 2015, the Minister of Internal Security at the time, Gilad Erdan, announced that he intended to appoint Brigadier General (ret.) Gal Hirsch to the position of Commissioner.
With the decision, information against Hirsch, originating from the police and the Anti-Money Laundering Authority, was brought before the then prosecutor Weinstein. As a result, a criminal investigation was opened and the appointment was canceled. The suspicions against Hirsch related to bribery and chastity in two cases: the tender for the removal of the fallen in Rishon Lezion and suspicion of accepting bribes in arms deals in Georgia. In February In 2018, the claim of the former intelligence chief of the Israel Police, Tanat Guy Nir, that Hirsch's appointment as commissioner was thwarted by senior police officers "in a manner bordering on criminality".
After about seven years of investigation, both cases were closed, but in October 2021, an indictment was filed against Hirsch for tax evasion in the amount of about six million shekels he received for consulting services for the Georgian Ministry of Defense.
The reasonable reader understands from you that he has been wronged. Are you claiming that because of the closure of the bribery case and the long duration of the investigation, the prosecutor's office had to drop charges of a tax offense of six million shekels? Or should the court accept a defense claim from justice?
"I wrote explicitly: I do not know the evidentiary material, and I will leave that to the professionals. There is a judge who is hearing the case. Judge Eliyahu Winograd, who headed the commission to review the events of the Second Lebanon campaign, praised Hirsch. Judge Mishal Cheshin was interviewed on the eve of his death on the IDF radio.
This huge man admitted that he did not sleep at night over the injustice he said was caused to Hirsch.
Prof. Amnon Rubinstein said that Mashal Cheshin left him a will to fight for the Hirsch.
The serious bribery cases he was suspected of surfaced a week after Erdan proposed to the government to appoint Hirsch as the police commissioner.
In short, you think you've sewn a bag for him.
"I didn't say."
You said everything except the explicit words.
"You will conclude what you will. I did not say that you will sew a case, I have no proof. In the end, both cases were closed with no guilt. I tell myself only one thing: you can feel a sense of 'what happened here'. The accusations were investigated with complete justice, but where were they Until Gal Hirsch was proposed to the commissions?
Now there is one case left about an act that happened or did not happen 15 years ago, for which the trial has not even started yet.
Hirsch consults me.
I asked, do you admit to the crime?
He told me 'no'.
I told him: 'Then you will fight for your innocence, but I will warn you: the course you are going towards is very long, and you have not served the public for years, which is the bird of your soul.
It involves heartache and financial expenses and the risk of conviction, of course.'
That's why I said 'come to a compromise'."
In the end you, Cheshin and Rubinstein do not know the evidence. If Hirsch is convicted, it turns out that a district judge dedicates his autobiography to the defense of a tax delinquent.
"No. That's not what I'm saying, I'm not defending him. I wrote in the book: 'My words are not a valid legal statement.' If he is acquitted of the tax case, it will be a very hard blow to the prosecutor's office. What is the public interest, to manage the case to the end?"
Comments
Itay Rom, the reporter for "Hamakor", who edited the article with Raviv Drucker, said: "The relevant segment was played in the program in its entirety, in its exact context and without any distortion, and it speaks for itself. We believe that it is possible to find out about this type of procedure even without a rape victim demonstrating what happened when she on her knees".
Attorney Roni Aloni Sedovnik: "The public saw and heard the recording of the brutal interrogation that went through in Ulmo of a girl victim of a nationalist gang rape.
If Judge Segal still believes today that there is no black flag flying over his demand from the girl to demonstrate the rape, then it is puzzling how he served as a judge in sexual offense cases.
Segal refused, and only the Supreme Court allowed us to broadcast the recording on television.
Regarding the letter, someone close to the staff told me that the staff was 'terribly hurt', so we made it clear to him in the letter that our criticism is not against him personally, but against the treatment of victims in the courts.
We intend to sue Judge Segal and the publishing house 'Yediot Sferim' for defamation and misleading the public."
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