Exclusive interview: Merz reprimands "chaotic" after the Berlin riot - Söder warns of the Greens as a "blackout risk"

Created: 01/05/2023 11:06 am

By: Mike Schier, Christian Deutschlaender, Georg Anastasiadis

Friedrich Merz (CDU) and Markus Soeder (CSU) in the Seehaus Munich.

© Astrid Schmidhuber

The two union leaders talk to Merkur about Berlin's New Year's Eve, nuclear power, traffic light errors - and their new male friendship.

Munich – Exactly one year ago, Markus Söder and Friedrich Merz first met at Kirchsee in the district of Bad Tölz-Wolfratshausen for a quiet strategy talk.

The harmonious images of the wintry lake should herald a new age in the recent turbulent times.

Merz (67) is now spending the beginning of the year back in his house in Upper Bavaria.

Our newspaper asked him and Söder (55) to meet again at a lake – this time at Kleinhesseloher See in the English Garden in Munich.

In the Seehaus we spoke with the conservative party leaders about the major construction sites of the time - and the answers from the traffic lights.

Despite the difficult times, it was a humorous conversation in which, of course, the question was asked how the Union intends to nominate its next candidate for chancellor.

Mr. Merz, how and where did you celebrate New Year's Eve?

At home in the Sauerland, in your adopted home of Bavaria or in your professional home of Berlin?

Merz: Christmas as always at home in Sauerland and the turn of the year as sometimes in Bavaria.

Berlin was never an option for Christmas, seldom for New Year's Eve - and certainly not at all this year.

What did you think when you saw the pictures?

Merz: These chaotic people, most of them with a migration background, challenge the state with riots.

Mr. Söder, apart from the discussion about penalties, is there a need for a new debate on migration?

Söder: I see it primarily as a Berlin problem.

Integration works much better in Bavaria, although we have the highest proportion of people with a migration background.

Why?

Because integration works best through the economy and jobs, and Bavaria is simply best positioned in Germany.

And we will continue to need immigration for the job market.

The government has plans to...

Söder: ... but the wrong ones.

The traffic light should simply ensure that visas are issued more quickly in the German embassies in the Western Balkans.

Sometimes it takes twelve or 24 months to issue work visas.

But instead of better equipping the embassies for practical use, an ideological change in citizenship law is being pushed.

Interview with Merz and Söder: Is the year 2015 repeating itself in Germany?

Your Chancellor, Merkel, has made a sacred promise that 2015 will not be repeated.

Now district administrators have to confiscate gymnasiums again to accommodate comers.

Merz: It doesn't repeat itself either.

At the moment we don't have the completely uncontrolled immigration that we had back then, because around a million refugees from Ukraine have come to Germany because of Putin's war, mostly women and children, and these refugees deserve our full solidarity and support.

However, the number of refugees via the Balkan route is increasing again.

And so the accommodation problems are repeated.

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Söder: Bavaria has taken in more refugees than France.

We show heart.

But the federal government hands over some of the control of migration to non-governmental organizations.

Is it better if NGOs decide in the end instead of the state?

This is a general problem with traffic lights: the Greens in particular are making Germany an NGO republic.

Greenpeace and Attac are the new masterminds in the foreign and trade ministries and have more influence than seasoned experts.

Mr. Merz, how united is the Union on the subject?

A number of members of the Merkel wing have voted against the official position of the CDU on the right to residency.

Merz: You did not vote against it, but a small group abstained from a coalition draft law.

Basically, my predecessor Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer has already worked through the events of 2016/2017 - and it will remain with these results.

Let's talk about the Union and your personal relationship.

Is our perception wrong that you weren't always the best of friends in the past?

Merz: Your perception is wrong because we held political offices at completely different times until last year.

We've known each other for decades, but there was little overlap: Markus Söder was a young CSU general secretary when I first became parliamentary group leader - we had little to do with each other.

Markus Söder became Prime Minister when I wasn't even in politics - we had little to do with each other there either.

That only changed when I became party leader of the CDU.

Personally, we have a completely trouble-free relationship.

Mr. Söder, try to be charming: what do you appreciate about the opposition leader and the person Friedrich Merz?

Söder: Straightforwardness, clear words and the right coordinate system.

Friedrich is now my third party leader of the CDU (Merz laughs) – and working with him is by far the best.

The basic advantage is that there is simply a much higher level of commonality in the political substance.

We are both very bourgeois politicians.

That helped when we both found each other after the difficult year 2021.

Merz: I can only confirm that.

We can count on each other.

This also applies to the parliamentary group and Alexander Dobrindt.

Söder: Alexander is a strong politician and a very reliable partner.

We work great together.

Can you describe to us what your tuning looks like in practice?

Merz: We're both similar there: we text each other relatively briefly and without frills.

If it's necessary, we'll call on Sunday evening.

Either way, there is a “Unionslage” every Monday morning at 8 a.m., in which we vote for the coming week in a small group.

Söder: And unlike in the days of Angela Merkel or Edmund Stoiber, this is a video conference.

There's a big difference between seeing each other.

The distribution of work and roles is clear anyway: the leader of the opposition in Berlin is Friedrich Merz.

I'm Prime Minister and I'm particularly involved in the federal government when it affects Bavaria.

The two union leaders in an interview with Merkur.

© Astrid Schmidhuber

How Merz and Söder want to clarify the candidate for Chancellor

If you have such a great understanding, you have certainly already clarified the candidacy for chancellor.

Merz: (laughs) I was waiting to see if that would be the first, second or third question.

In the middle.

But the question has to come up, because last time it went rather suboptimal.

Merz: You phrased that nicely.

Does the nomination have to be earlier next time?

Merz: That's why I became a bit unfriendly within the CDU in autumn 2020.

You need a year for the good preparation of a federal election.

Let's assume that the election will take place as usual in autumn 2025 - which is more uncertain than ever with this traffic light - then that would mean: We have to make a decision by early autumn 2024 at the latest.

Is it like it used to be, that the two chairmen have to agree on a candidate?

Söder: If the chairmen do not agree, the matter is doomed to fail from the start.

That was already the case in the 1970s when Franz Josef Strauss fought against Ernst Albrecht.

That means we have to come to an understanding.

Only unity leads to success.

So: how to communicate?

Söder: From my point of view, the matter is clear: the party leader of the CDU has a clear claim to leadership within the CDU.

The CDU, in turn, normally takes precedence over the CSU.

Personally, I definitely have no more ambitions.

The topic of candidacy for chancellor is done for me.

In the life of a member of the CSU, this only happens once – it was the case with Strauss, Stoiber and me – but not a second time.

My job is Prime Minister in Bavaria, that's what I'm passionate about and that's what I'm doing with all my might.

I want us to keep a free, middle-class government in Bavaria and not get mini traffic lights like in Berlin.

Let's talk about the here and now: Christian Lindner has presented a thesis paper.

Older people are reminded of Otto Graf Lambsdorff in 1982.

The beginning of the end of the coalition back then.

Söder: The difference is: Christian Lindner is not presenting this paper to change the strategic direction of the traffic light policy, but out of a guilty conscience before the state elections this year.

So far, the FDP has been doing the complete opposite of what it promised.

Christian Lindner is the largest debt finance minister that Germany has ever had.

CDU and CSU union leaders on nuclear power and the future of energy production

Energy is likely to become a fateful topic for Germany.

Mr. Merz, you said internally that it is now too late to order the fuel rods.

Have you given up hope of keeping the nuclear power plants running beyond April?

Merz: Since last summer we have been demanding that the nuclear power plants should continue to run.

Nothing changed about that.

In a formal letter to the coalition partners with the authority to set guidelines, however, the Federal Chancellor put his foot down and said: April 15 is the end.

This is unique in the history of the Federal Republic.

In my opinion, nothing will change about that.

The Social Democrats and the Greens have made a political commitment.

I still think that's a mistake.

But then it makes no sense if the Union continues to demand an extension.

SODER: Yes.

I am firmly convinced that we will need nuclear energy for a long time to come.

The greens are the number one blackout risk.

So we need a new stress test immediately to see what's in store for us from April.

We can't just be dependent on very expensive American liquid fracking gas and a court curtsey in Qatar in the long run.

This threatens Germany's creeping decline due to the extremely high prices.

In this situation, we must not refuse nuclear energy or cheap German gas.

Otherwise we are like the national soccer team: good morale, but bad results.

What is the solution?

Söder: In addition to the massive expansion of renewables, an energy bridge is needed for the crisis years: In the north we produce gas, in the south the nuclear power plants run longer.

This creates security and stability for the necessary transitional period.

Why fracking only in the north, not in Bavaria?

Söder: That depends on geology.

Unlike the north, we simply don't have much potential.

I know fracking is controversial - but there is a special emergency and the skepticism of the public today is based on the methods of ten years ago.

Today there are completely different technologies.

Even the experts of the federal government say so.

Unfortunately, the traffic light ignores good arguments.

Robert Habeck should learn that he is first and foremost Minister of Economic Affairs and not just Green Minister of Climate.

It remains a green lie to believe that one can get out of oil, coal, gas and nuclear power at the same time without causing an economic and social crash in Germany.

Markus Söder: "Absolute majorities are mostly unsympathetic to citizens today"

Mr. Merz, the Union criticizes a lot, but doesn't say that many problems stem from 16 years of Merkel's government.

Merz: That is mainly the story of the traffic light parties, who give the impression that we have governed alone for 16 years.

But one of them was always there, mostly the SPD.

Of the last 24 years, the SPD has been in government for 20 years and provided the chancellor for seven years.

But the nuclear phase-out was the topic of Söder and Merkel.

Söder: But you have a very selective memory.

As if we did this alone...

Merz: The decision to exit in 2011 was made under the impact of the reactor accident in Japan.

From today's perspective, the Union would change the order: not get out first and then consider the alternatives.

To put it bluntly: the old nuclear energy is gone.

But we need clarity as to where future base load electricity will come from.

We can truly be accused of some of the mistakes we made over the past 16 years - but why on earth does this government have to repeat these mistakes - first get out everywhere and then search laboriously for how we can secure our energy supply?

A look at Bavaria: How important are the state elections for the political statics of the Union nationwide?

Merz: The Bavarians choose three weeks before Hesse – so Bavaria is ahead of the two large area states.

Hessen is a very demanding terrain for us.

It's like last year, when the smaller Schleswig-Holstein presented and the CDU then celebrated great success in North Rhine-Westphalia...

Söder: ...You don't want to compare us with Schleswig-Holstein now, do you?

(laughs) Delete the sentence about the good cooperation.

(Laughter)

Seriously: Mr. Merz, do you think, like Ilse Aigner, that the goal of the CSU should be to win back the absolute majority?

Söder: Ilse Aigner now sees things differently.

We totally agree.

Merz: Since I'm good friends with Ilse Aigner, I can say that she knows, like all of us, that absolute majorities can only be achieved in the rarest of exceptional cases.

A strong result for the CSU in Bavaria would be a great success for the whole Union.

Söder: The goal is to govern in a stable manner.

Absolute majorities seem mostly unsympathetic to the citizens today.

And a party that only cares about its numbers comes across as arrogant.

What is important is our joint government balance sheet.

Bavaria is doing very well compared to all other federal states and we have a plan for the future.

We want to continue governing together with the Free Voters.

There will be no black and green in Bavaria.

We don't need any traffic light hiccups, we need a reliable civil government for the Free State.

That's what we stand for.

Interview: Georg Anastasiadis, Mike Schier and Christian Deutschländer