After the scenes of violence during the police operation in Lützerath, there is a lot of discussion: did the officers go too far?
NRW Interior Minister Herbert Reul has a clear opinion – and assumes the activists have a “conscious strategy”.
Düsseldorf – The handprints are still clearly visible: the day before, climate activists had stuck themselves to the panes next to the entrance to the NRW Ministry of the Interior in protest against the eviction of the lignite village of Lützerath at the RWE Garzweiler II opencast mine. While police officers laboriously removed them from the pane , the demonstrators demanded the resignation of NRW Interior Minister Herbert Reul (CDU).
Her accusation: He was responsible for police violence in Lützerath.
In an interview with 24RHEIN, Reul faces the allegations.
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NRW Interior Minister Herbert Reul.
© Peter Seven
On the outskirts of the village, emergency services had used batons and pepper spray against demonstrators.
The activists spoke of hundreds of injuries.
One might think: The last days of Lützerath must have been exhausting for Herbert Reul.
Demands for his resignation, demos right in front of his ministry and the loud public discussion about the question: did the police go too far in the operation in Lützerath, for which he is responsible?
You can't tell anything about him.
He sits relaxed on the crumpled leather suite in his office, chatting happily about the sudden onset of winter and only becomes serious when it comes to the allegations against his police officers.
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The traces are still there: climate activists had stuck to the NRW Ministry of the Interior in protest against the police operation in Lützerath.
© Peter Seven
What do you mean by the word "police violence"?
The word is currently often used as a blanket accusation against the police.
Allegedly, the police as a whole used excessive force in Lützerath, for example.
It is certainly wrong to be so undifferentiated, because the police can and must use violence under certain conditions.
The state monopoly on the use of force means, if necessary, using force to enforce the law.
Depending on the situation, police officers must use coercive measures to protect others and themselves.
However, this must always be done in proportion, without exception.
In your opinion, was the use of force by the police in Lützerath proportionate?
Basically yes.
But with over 3,000 police officers on duty, I can't give a general answer to that, of course.
Therefore, every single case where there is reasonable suspicion that police officers have used disproportionate force is investigated.
Have you already discovered such cases?
Yes, so far we are aware of five cases in which criminal proceedings have been initiated.
It's being determined now.
Blame yourself for using the baton?
“The demonstrators are responsible for that.
Yes."
What exactly happened there?
I can't say anything about that at the moment.
First, these are ongoing investigations.
And secondly, these videos are mostly just snippets.
It is then important to examine: What was before?
What was afterwards?
Maybe there was an attack on the cop before.
Or the policeman has to prevent activists from getting too close to the edge of the opencast mine, where they could fall.
Does that mean that the demonstrators at the edge of the mine are themselves to blame if the police used batons or pepper spray against them?
People were vehemently asked several times to leave certain areas in front of Lützerath, which they did not do.
If none of this works, then the police will eventually have to resort to coercive measures and enforce the law.
The demonstrators are responsible for that.
Yes.
Allegedly hundreds injured in Lützerath: "Conscious strategy"
In 2017 you abolished the identification requirement for police officers in North Rhine-Westphalia. Doesn't that prevent those affected from reporting individual police officers?
no
I am not aware of any case where we have not been able to identify a riot police officer when such reports have been made.
Even if we no longer have an individual identification requirement, the police officers are not completely anonymous in their uniforms.
There is still a so-called tactical back marking.
We can always assign any operational force.
According to activists, there were life-threatening injuries in Lützerath. This could not be confirmed afterwards. What do you think: didn't they know any better or are the allegations a strategy?
I suspect there is a deliberate strategy to make the police look bad.
Individual activists have apparently told untruths.
The credibility of these allegations has suffered greatly as a result.
Herbert Reul on the word "climate terrorists": "That's nonsense"
What do you think of the word “climate terrorists”?
I don't think so at all.
That's nonsense.
When young people get involved politically, for whatever legitimate cause, that's great.
But young people also need to know that there are rules in a democratic constitutional state.
And I think they should also have the attitude that maybe they're not always right.
In Lützerath, people threw stones and firecrackers at police officers. Some draw comparisons between them and the people who attacked police officers and rescue workers on New Year's Eve. How do you like the comparison?
If someone throws rockets, firecrackers or Molotov cocktails at police officers or rescue workers, I don't care who it is.
Whether it is a woman, a man, a young or old person, a resident or a foreigner: that is unacceptable.
After New Year's Eve riots: Minister of the Interior Reul wants to "sharpen the law"
There were already attacks on emergency services on New Year's Eve 2021/22. Example Essen: To date, there has been no verdict. Why is that?
We often have a problem identifying the perpetrators.
When acts happen from groups, it is difficult to identify a suspect.
But courts need names and evidence.
The law could also possibly be sharpened to prevent those who form a protective wall around the perpetrators as a group from doing so more consistently or to make them criminally responsible for it.
Two hotspots on New Year's Eve were in NRW Duisburg and Essen. Do you see connections with criminal clan structures in the cities?
I can't rule that out, but I can't prove it either.
The prevention offer "Get a curve" in the Ruhr area for young people from criminal clan structures is very poorly accepted. Why is that?
The sheer number of participants may seem small, but in reality it is a huge success.
From their point of view, some people live very well in the criminal clan structures.
There is an income, a protective family.
And with the offer we're making to young people and their families, they're expected to give that up in a way.
That's almost impossible.
I regret that and I find it a great pity.
We cannot force them, but we will always try to persuade these people to leave criminal clan structures.
Critics say your zero-tolerance policy on clans stigmatizes people just because they go by a certain name. What do you say?
I knew from the beginning that this danger existed.
But if you make that the basis of your decision, that's irresponsible.
I've decided to take consistent action against clan crime - despite the possible risks.
We do not make the names of the families public.
But if I want to solve a problem, I have to describe the problem precisely.
The prosecution of criminals is not discrimination, but a legal duty of the police.
