Maybrit Illner is about Germany's tank delivery to Ukraine.
Strack-Zimmermann wants “military logic” and Stegner remains calm personified.
Berlin – It starts with tough drums in this round of talks.
Maybrit Illner accuses FDP MP Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann of having "damaged" Chancellor Olaf Scholz (SPD) with her criticism.
She does not contradict and even repeats her allegations.
Germany had "historically failed" with the late tank commitment.
Illner concludes: “Then there is little in the way of a coalition break.
Then you could now follow Friedrich Merz.” That goes too far for the war expert.
"No, so Friedrich Merz.
We don't want to overdo it now."
Maybrit Illner: Discussion about delivery of tanks to the Ukraine
The SPD member of the Bundestag Ralf Stegner agrees.
The “citizens on the street” would “not long for Friedrich Merz or a Söder in the chancellery at all”.
The people are very satisfied that Scholz is there with someone "who keeps his nerves on questions of war and peace".
Was the chancellor's hesitation a success or an embarrassment, Illner von
Spiegel
journalist Matthias Gebauer wants to know.
"A little bit of both," he replies.
You just have to produce pictures.
Scholz had tacted and hesitated and "he won't get rid of this stamp".
It is also surprising that just one day after the decision, there was an "increase in cyber attacks attributed to Russian hackers".
Exactly which attacks Gebauer means remains unclear.
In the afternoon there were reports of the unmasking of a "Hive" hacker group, but their servers were located in Los Angeles.
Gebauer also praised the Chancellor's calmness despite the great pressure from all sides: "Gerhard Schröder could not have endured two hours." Ex-US General Ben Hodges, connected via video from London, complained, unsurprisingly, that Scholz was far too late traded.
Hodges even speaks of a "missed opportunity".
These guests discussed with Maybrit Illner:
Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann
(Member of the Bundestag, FDP)
Ralf Stegner
(Member of the Bundestag, SPD)
Ben Hodges
(former commander of US forces in Europe)
Matthias Gebauer
(journalist, "Spiegel")
Jana Puglierin
(political scientist)
Franz Alt
(journalist)
Maybrit Illner: Journalist Alt sees the danger of world war – "never so close"
Stegner urges prudence.
He is bothered by the trivialization of the debate through supposedly funny leopard memes, people in Leo costumes, mocking sayings and hashtags like "FreeTheLeopards".
"It's like we're talking about the liberation of zoo animals," he says, outraged, and adds: "We're talking about a very serious matter." Franz Alt, at the age of 84 one of the doyens of German journalism, gives the group decisive impetus.
"After almost 20 minutes on our show, the word peace hasn't been mentioned yet," he stated sadly.
The motto had always been "make peace without weapons".
Now he is also in favor of arms deliveries and the motto of the time is now "make peace with arms".
But he points out: "We talk too much about weapons, weapons, weapons and not enough about peace negotiations and a peace treaty." That is always possible at any time, as the last Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev proved.
And he was dealing with a "cold warrior Ronald Reagan".
"Even in seemingly hopeless situations, peace is still possible," says Alt. If you keep saying "It won't work with Putin," then it won't happen.
"If you don't do that, that's a failure to provide assistance," he emphasizes, and warns urgently: "We've never been so close to a world war.
You have to say it was the end of the world.” He says he prefers “a chancellor who hesitates and hesitates when it comes to arms deliveries to a daredevil”.
Maybrit Illner: Journalist Alt considers talks with Putin to be inevitable
"Whether the tanks will really end the war faster" is a question one should ask, Stegner interjects.
Germany is already "by far the second largest supporter of Ukraine".
Strack-Zimmermann interrupts him several times, but Stegner persists: "Sometimes I have the impression that we have a lot of new military experts in Germany." Alt throws keywords like "Cuban Crisis", Kennedy and Khrushchev into the discussion.
There had always been tricky and threatening situations, and we always got together and came to an agreement.
The journalist remembers two former chancellors.
Helmut Schmidt "said publicly several times: 'We pay too little attention to the security interests of Putin and Russia'".
And Helmut Kohl had warned that one had to talk more to Putin.
“Russia's security interests are incredibly important to Europe's security.
If I want to get along with Putin, I have to put myself in his shoes.
There's no other way," says Alt.
Strack-Zimmermann countered this.
The construction of the Nord Stream pipeline was an affront.
Even if cheap Russian gas was in Germany's interest, the agreement was "to the detriment of Ukraine".
Illner then comes up with a remarkable sentence: "Nord Stream 2 has significantly damaged everything that is in our interests." The group cannot clarify what she means by that, because Illner attaches a one-minute question and the statement fizzles out.
Maybrit Illner: FDP Stegner: "It's no small matter to come to an agreement with America"
SPD politician Stegner praises the prudence of the chancellor.
It is forbidden to speak publicly about some considerations.
Then you could tell Putin right away what you're up to.
“The public endures the three days,” he emphasizes.
After all, it is "no small matter to come to an agreement with America," said Stegner.
He turns to Strack-Zimmermann: “It's not always just about the newest type of weapon.
Where is that actually supposed to lead?” “It's military logic,” counters the person addressed, but that's grist to Stegner's mill: “It's always just military logic.
We have too much of that.
War means murder, destruction, rape, misery for the people.” Franz Alt warns once again: Russia's security interests are not taken into account enough.
"You can't just wipe that off the table!" he says.
Illner does not accept the argument: "No one does."
Summary of the talk at Maybrit Illner:
A remarkable round.
Ironically, the oldest guest, Franz Alt, gave the freshest impetus.
And Ralf Stegner proved to be extremely level-headed.
Meanwhile, Illner looked stricken: wrong quotes, wrong first names (Marie-Luise instead of Marie-Agnes).
(Michael Goermann)
