Precisely in the decision received by Dana Azrieli about two weeks ago, to fold a magnificent fold, to change following the publication in Vala!
Barangay its policy and allow "Haaretz" to publish a "political" campaign in front of the huge demonstration near the Kariya - precisely in which Ravita Hecht finds reason for optimism.
"Two good things still happened in this crazy situation," she says.
"First of all, the masks have fallen. Now it's no longer possible to pretend. It's no longer a privilege. And that's a good thing. It sharpens the muscles of citizenship. You say, 'Dana Azrieli has to make a decision, even if it's difficult for her along the way.' The second thing is that this revolution formed our camp. Now I understand what we are fighting for here."
Hecht, a veteran editor at "Haaretz" and one of the newspaper's top publicists - considered the ultimate exponent of "leftist sentiment" - sat down for a conversation on the Israel Press Institute's podcast.
On the agenda: how far will the left go in opposing the revolution,
A small part of the conversation is presented here in the article.
Listen or watch the full conversation.
Ravit Hecht (Reuven Castro, Walla system)
"Many times we come down on Arab leaders who speak double-tongued at home and abroad. And what does Netanyahu do? He tells Sullivan in English that the reform will pass with broad consensus. And in Hebrew, he says he was elected because of it."
You wrote not long ago that "the center-left is militant among its constituents and understands that relying on the moderate right and the ultra-Orthodox is a fiction."
But actually you have also called yourself many times in the last months for cooperation with the "state right".
"True, I called for a unity government under Netanyahu until very recently, even after the elections - for their disastrous results. I thought there could be a situation where it would be better for Gantz or Yair Lapid to enter the government. I believe that someday I will return to this position that expresses 70-80% of the people who are not represented on the various platforms And especially on the social networks that set the tone here. Look, we live in a world where Avi Maoz is more important than Benny Gantz and Lapid, and this is a distorted picture."
So what made you change your position?
"I lost my mind after seeing the 'legal reform' of Yariv Levin. From the way things look, I can't think of a way in which the RLB camp can cooperate with this."
It's interesting, because it seems that maybe the leaders of the camp think differently.
Gantz initially proposed "negotiations with the coalition" for agreements on legislation, Lapid proposed a "presidential conference", and Herzog himself speaks of "negotiations".
What do you think of these offers?
"Herzog is constantly trying and that's his job. I'm not one of those who think that Herzog is being a slob or a flatterer or something like that. I think there should be one place that insists on being a neutral factor in this madness. That's fine and that's his job. I do think he's mistaken in his understanding of reality. He Talks about negotiations, and conveys that the legal system is fortified and does not want to enter into talks, but in practice there is one side here that attacks the other side and tries to trample on it. How can you talk with such motivation. Having completed several negotiations with Netanyahu, I think Herzog knows that what Netanyahu says is not always That's right. Many times we come down on Arab leaders who speak double-tongued at home and abroad. And what does Netanyahu do? He tells Sullivan (American National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan D.W.) in English that the reform will pass with broad consensus. And in Hebrew, he says that he was elected for that and he Not going to make any changes. So what's the truth?
"There are no indications that Netanyahu is indeed interested in talks. If there were, I would be the first - and I got a lot of flak from the RLB for this, and I was even offended by it - to call for talks.
But there is an error in the understanding of reality, who to talk to exactly?".
In the perspective of four or five years, what do you think about this format called "RALB".
Did he bring the goods?
"I think that from a political point of view, the concept of 'just not Bibi' did not bring the goods, it only made the situation worse. I do agree with them that Netanyahu is not a person to do business with."
"An error in understanding reality".
President Herzog (Photo: Flash 90, Avshalom Sassouni)
"Every leftist is a sabotage agent within his own camp"
"I meet a lot with groups of religious-nationalists and they say to me these days, 'Oh, now you know Avi Maoz? He has been our problem for years.' The real problem is that in this government he has power."
In general, there are "leftist" journalists who talk about the difficulty of going against the leftist "base".
It was easily convincing five or six years ago, and now feels like an excuse to cringe.
In a reality where most TV panels are bibists, does it still take courage to support Netanyahu in the media?
"Obviously. It's the national sport, to go down on the left. Look, I always say that every leftist is a sabotage agent within his own camp. Pay attention, even now, there is political representation for the left that is lacking in the Knesset, also because of poor organization for the elections. And opposite, there is A party that has exhausted its power, and is receiving excess representation. So what is the left doing, continuing to attack and weaken the representatives of the left in the Knesset even more. Now it is against Michaeli and Gantz and Lapid. This is a wrong and incorrect practice. I am speaking now as a supporter of the left, not as a journalist. As journalists we are supposed to attack all of them all the time."
And maybe now, after years of talk, "we're moving the cheese" for real, without apologizing,
"I don't see Yariv Levin's judicial foundation bill as moving cheese, but rather a profound and fundamental change of laws that have been in practice here for years and are anchored in the Declaration of Independence. None of us 'disrespects the results of the elections'. A large part of the public has had its say, and that's fine Done. But what has been happening here since the establishment of the government is a very heavy bombardment from all fronts on the liberal public, whatever it is. You know, I meet a lot with religious-nationalist groups and they say to me these days, 'Oh, now you know Avi Maoz? He is a problem Ours for years'. He was their problem long before he became a problem for all of us. The real problem is that in this government he has power. I'm really not sure that this is what the Likud and Shas voters wanted.
That is, there is something a little arrogant about this argument. Maybe what is difficult to digest here is that this is what they want?
"I live in a family like this, where my mother and I vote for the center-left bloc, and everyone else votes for Likud. I want to tell you that people don't delve into this matter, it's more difficult for them with radicalization and the pull towards a halachic state. LGBT people in this context are paper Litmus is very interesting.
Not because we 'control the media' as they say in 'Noam'.
It's like the abortion issue - a litmus test for which country is here.
By the way, I am not alarmed by a conservative, traditional country, but with a 'live and let live' approach - or you live in a fundamentalist country.
A country where religious coercion is not an election slogan of fashionable parties with equality as a burden and so on.
But it's really something that seeps into life, into school content, into the fever of modesty you see here, completely crazy things that people don't connect to.
This concerns right-wing people a lot, even if some of them defend their choice."
"I'm really not sure that this is what the Likud and Shas voters wanted." Avi Maoz (Photo: Reuven Castro)
"I was in Amona and I saw things happening there and I saw people who, for their part, gave their lives for this thing. You can agree or not, it doesn't matter, but they were willing to go all the way. I think that today the center-left camp is in this situation."
So there is nothing to build on the "liberal right" here.
This is Wishful Thinking.
"There is currently nothing to build on them. Perhaps in a more long-term process. At the current stage, I am surveying the Knesset members who represent the liberal current in Likud and even the moderates, let's say Yuli Edelstein, Avi Dichter and the like do not say a word. I do see a reference when it comes to Halacha. Here It's hard for them. You saw Miki Zahar and what he said about the activity on Shabbat. Unfortunately, in the legal matter, I don't think there is anything to build on them.
"In general, people here think they are giving up power in favor of the leftists, the elites.
But they give up their own power.
In most of its rulings, the High Court of Justice protected the weak, the poor, and settlers. Even now, when Lieberman wanted to deny dormitory subsidies - the right of standing for those who want to cancel a position for the ultra-Orthodox in an appeal to the High Court.
But there is a big disruption of concepts here, and it is easy to attack the 'Ashkenazim'."
A few weeks ago you wrote that "the protesters came out to protest against their extinction. We need to make sure they multiply."
And maybe this is where the tragedy actually lies?
You talked about the demonstrations, and I take it up a notch to the entire camp.
Demographically it just won't happen.
"It's very hard to know. I think the struggle will escalate, because the right-wing camp rose up with a lot of noise. But you know, I was in Amona and I saw things happening there and I saw people who, for their part, gave their lives for this thing. You can agree or not, it doesn't matter, but they Be prepared to go all the way. I think that today the center-left camp is in this situation. It is in a situation where it feels that it is fighting for the very soul of democracy, and it will go all the way. Since I do not see an authentic desire of the government to negotiate, then there is going to be a clash. I really hope that it will be padded as much as possible and will not be tragic, but I don't really see any other way out at the moment."
"The struggle will escalate, because the right has risen with a great noise."
Demonstration of hundreds of thousands in Kriya (photo: official website, Amir Goldstein)
"Today there are politicians I will not talk to"
You said that your family is partly bibist and you are a lesbian.
How do you settle the contradiction there?
"I tell them that they are voting against me, and they cite Amir Ohana as an example. And I believe them that they don't want to put me back in the closet. But look, there are so many different narratives here that conversations here won't help. No one will convince anyone. That's why I say that the clash It is inevitable. They think that the evil elite of the court is the exact opposite of democracy. And our fear as a community is political use. This thing is very complicated and complex. It happens in a lot of families or friends. We have reached a situation where something good that happens to one side is a disaster for the other. Every An achievement by one side looks like an attack on the other. It's a tragedy, and that's how civil wars start."
A few years ago you interviewed Finance Minister Smotrich, then MK, in a way that we call him a hugger and a fan. You are not the only one from "Haaretz" who fell under the spell of politicians from the right and they were given more and more legitimacy from the left.
"I interviewed him several times, the last time was in my opinion in 2016. I didn't take him out for what he is not. It was a profile of a rising leader, a man with abilities and vision. I came to talk to him and did not confront him, that's true."
If you had known that he would later lead, alongside others, such a reform, would you have acted differently?
"Yes. I would have come to it differently. I did not imagine that it would develop into what it did. I don't think he deceived me. But I think that this democratic discourse of bringing everything in its name, and the desire to bring in other voices, is a discourse that can do harm. I admit That I was not aware of the intensity of the danger. I thought that everything was legitimate in the democratic game. Today there are politicians with whom I will not speak. Because I am both a citizen and a human being, anyone who wants to exclude me and shame me and does not respect the most humane rules of the game, I do not want anything to do with him. I do not want to interview And I don't want it to be my source and I don't want anything to do with it."
"Dana Azrieli needs to decide." The "Haaretz" campaign (Photo: Reuven Castro)
"Don't want to be accessible"
"You find yourself on Friday afternoon, in the little time you have for yourself and the children, arguing with some stranger named 'Stellan Ehad' who calls you horrible names. Why do I need this? Someone pays me for this? I also don't understand journalists who are around all day There, they discount their work"
What do you think about the conduct of the media around the regime revolution?
I feel that she does not internalize the magnitude of the event.
"Depends on which. You see yes and no channels, and because the map of interests is not fully laid out before me, I feel that we are in a missing discourse... Since the corona virus, I have no patience for this type of media (the current affairs studios on the commercial channels D.V.). I don't want the mediation This one. I want information so I get it myself."
This is also true for Twitter.
"Yes. I don't approach him. In this matter I act like a survivor from the Palmach generation and I believe that my truth will prevail.
At first, Twitter was very tempting, but then I noticed that it is an aggressive arena like no other, that apart from the fights, it doesn't have much value beyond that.
And then you find yourself on Friday afternoon, in the little time you have for yourself and the kids, arguing with some stranger named 'Stellan One' who calls you horrible names.
Why do I need it?
Is someone paying me for this?
I also don't understand journalists who are there all day, they cheapen their work.
There is a certain error here that is not clear to me.
"But that's secondary, the main problem there is the violence. Everyone is in trouble there. There is also a gender issue here. It is also very difficult for women there because aggression towards women opens the door to absolutely disgusting things, about appearance and body. Also, I think women are less interested in fighting All the time. It's just bad. I don't want to be accessible. I want to do my journalistic work in the best possible way, that's what I'm paid for. But my profession does not require me to be humiliated and does not require me to open an opening for my attack."
A few weeks ago it was revealed here in this section, about the refusal of the Azrieli group to publish the "Haaretz" campaign during the demonstration at the Kaplan intersection.
After the publication, the group retracted them, and even published official support for the "struggle for democracy".
What do you think, if anything, can be learned from this magnificent folding about the public mindset and the capitalists here?
"Because these are such extreme days, I can understand a business owner who gets confused, but two good things have happened in this crazy situation: first of all, the masks have fallen. You have to choose a side. Now you can no longer pretend. This is no longer a privilege. A person who is in the arena The public is required to make a decision. Some kind of thing. And that's a good thing. It sharpens the muscles of citizenship. You say, 'Dana Azrieli needs to make a decision, even if it will be difficult for her along the way.' The second thing is that this revolution formed our camp. Now I understand what we are fighting for here And you see that the index of self-attacks in 'Haaretz' has also decreased (in the meantime, Gadi Taub's column has also been removed from the D.V newspaper). I am always in favor of publishing everything, but this is not the time for me and Magev to attack each other. We are now fighting for democracy, And we are going to fight this war with all our might."